Greek Government Press Briefing, 10-07-14

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

Tmhma Dhmosiografikwn Kalycewn

Tetarth, 14 Ioylioy 2010

Ariqmos Deltioy: 278311475

Ekdosh 1

brf1407

KYBERNHTIKOS EKPROSWPOS

Aqhna, 14 Ioylioy 2010

JENOY TYPOY APO TON KYBERNHTIKO EKPROSWPO

GIWRGO PETALWTH

Kalo meshmeri.

Opws gnwrizoyme, sto xqesino Eurogroup egine mia syzhthsh kai gia thn Ellada, opoy paroysiasthke h endiamesh ekqesh gia thn poreia ths oikonomias. H ajiologhsh htan poly qetikh kai gia prwth fora, meta apo poly kairo, eginan enqarryntikes anafores gia th xwra mas, otan edw kai polloys mhnes eixame synhqisei se alloy eidoys anafores.

Epipleon, xqes, gia prwth fora, meta apo sxedon treis mhnes, h xwra mas bghke stis agores, me entoka grammatia, h zhthsh twn opoiwn yperkalyfqhke me anesh, enw sth diadikasia symmeteixan kai deka jenes trapezes, kati poy den einai synhqes.

Kai h ajiologhsh toy Eurogroup kai oi prosfates anakoinwseis toy ypoyrgeioy Oikonomikwn gia tis meiwseis toy elleimmatos kai thn poreia ths oikonomias, alla kai h xqesinh ejodos stis agores, apoteloyn safeis endeijeis oti epiteloys kati allazei sta oikonomika mas. Apoteloyn thn apth apodeijh oti oi qysies twn politwn prwta kai ths kybernhshs pianoyn topo, den pane xamenes. Apodidoyn epiteloys karpoys isxyropoiwntas bhma - bhma th qesh ths xwras mas dieqnws.

Deixnoyme me ayto ton tropo, toso stoys etairoys mas, oso kai stoys dieqneis paragontes oti eimaste pleon mia xwra ajiopisth, ypeyqynh apenanti stis dieqneis ths ypoxrewseis kai xtizoyme jana, se sterees baseis, thn kalh kai fereggya eikona mas, poy apotelei basikh proypoqesh gia thn ejodo apo thn krish.

Epipleon, apoteloyn deigma oti h swsth dioikhsh kai h orqologikh dhmosionomikh symperifora poy egkaqidryetai stadiaka kai ginetai syneidhsh twn dhmosiwn leitoyrgwn, twn ypallhlwn kai twn politwn, se syndyasmo, bebaiws, kai me tis megales domikes allages poy prowqoyme ws kybernhsh se ola ta epipeda, qa mporesoyn sto kontino mellon na dhmioyrghsoyn tis proypoqeseis poy apaitoyntai gia thn askhsh diaforetikwn koinwnikwn politikwn, yper twn asqenesterwn sympolitwn mas poy plhttontai perissotero apo thn krish.

Einai akribws aytes oi megales allages sto forologiko systhma, sto asfalistiko systhma, poy hdh oloklhrwnontai, sth dioikhtikh domh ths xwras kai sth dhmosia dioikhsh kai to oristiko jerizwma ths pelateiakhs logikhs, apo to opoio diepetai to kratos edw kai polles dekaeties, poy apoteloyn thn eggyhsh mias diaforetikhs politikhs poreias ths xwras mas kai eggywntai ena asfales kai poiotiko mellon gia oloys toys Ellhnes polites.

Parakalw tis erwthseis sas.

SIDERHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, mias kai o k. Prwqypoyrgos ejefrase thn apoch oti prepei na yparjei anakatanomh toy ploytoy pros thn pagkosmia koinothta, mhpws ayto

qa isxysei kai gia toys Ellhnes ergazomenoys;

PETALWTHS: Programmatikh mas arxh kai meros ths ideologias mas, einai h anakatanomh toy ploytoy yper twn asqenesterwn. Kai parolo poy exoyme na kanoyme me thn pio dyskolh oikonomikh katastash poy biwse h xwra mas edw kai para polles dekaeties, prospaqoyme, mesa kai apo sklhres apofaseis, na diepontai apo to krithrio ths prostasias twn asqenesterwn politwn. Prospaqoyme na dhmioyrghsoyme ena neo, dikaiotero asfalistiko kai forologiko systhma, alla peran aytoy prospaqoyme opoiadhpote prajh kai apofash ths kybernhshs, na diepetai apo ayth thn arxh, oso kai an ta pragmata einai dyskola kai oso kai an apaiteitai na kanoyme oloi mas qysies.

SIDERHS: Kala ola ayta. H k. Katselh shmera, ston Poro, eipe oti to basiko problhma ths oikonomias mas einai h reystothta. H paroxh reystothtas gia to 2010 periorizetai sto 2 me 3% enanti toy 11% poy htan perysi. Kat arxas isxyei ayto kai ti kanete gia ayto; Kai an blepete na yparxei apoklish metajy twn megalwn yposxesewn sas kai toy ergoy sas;

PETALWTHS: Megales yposxeseis, den dwsame pote. Exoyme ena programma, to opoio kaloymaste na efarmosoyme. Apo kei kai pera, eipa kai prohgoymenws oti doyleyoyme se ektaktes synqhkes. H reystothta einai kati to zhtoymeno, den einai omws kati to aytomatopoihmeno. Gia na yparxei reystothta, qa prepei na anaptyxqoyn ekeines oi politikes mas -na jediplwqoyn, kati poy ginetai - poy exoyn amesh sxesh me thn oikonomia kai me thn anaptyjh ths xwras. Ayto omws proypoqete, na ginoyn alla bhmata pio mprosta, ta opoia hdh oloklhrwnoyme. Se ayth thn kateyqynsh kinoymaste. Gnwrizoyme para poly kala ti exoyme pleon ws dedomena. Gnwrizoyme poly kala, ti prepei na kanoyme apo dw kai pera. Ola ta qetika, ta opoia einai kai para polla, kai qa anadeixqoyn, alla kai qa apodeixqoyn sthn poreia toy xronoy kai malista syntoma.

MIXAHL: Kyrie Ekproswpe, milhsate oti pianoyn topo siga-siga oi qysies toy kosmoy kai gia ta qetika prwta shmadia ths oikonomias. Wstoso, yparxoyn akomh kapoia pragmata, ta opoia den einai kai toso eyxarista, opws h eisprajh twn esodwn. Ep` aytoy, pws ermhneyete to gegonos oti eji mhnes den kataferate na ayjhsete ta esoda; Mhpws ftaiei genika ayth h epiblhqeisa oikonomikh politikh;

PETALWTHS: Prwta ap` ola, pragmatika, einai polla ayta poy den exoyn ginei kai polla einai na ginoyn akomh. Alimono ean legame oti hdh eginan ola. Kai fysika, polla ta opoia den anadeiknyontai. Ws pros thn poreia ths oikonomias, nomizw oti kaqenas poy parakoloyqei tis ejelijeis sthn oikonomias mas, diapistwnei ekoysia h akoysia oti oi ejelijeis einai qetikes. Oti epiteloys briskoyme to bhmatismo mas. Fysika exoyn na ginoyn polla akomh, ta opoia omws den ginontai aytomatopoihmena. Ws pros thn ysterhsh twn esodwn, ean ennoeite ayto, einai safes - kai to exoyme pei kai alles fores- oti kai ta esoda pane kala, opws epishs kai h poly megalh meiwsh toy elleimmatos. Oson afora sta esoda poy emfanizoyn ysterhsh, einai giati den exei prosmetrhqei to eidiko telos twn akinhtwn (ETAK), h ayjhsh twn eidikwn forwn katanalwshs, opws to alkool, h deyterh ayjhsh toy FPA kai h ektakth eisfora twn kerdoforwn epixeirhsewn. Ean prosmetrhqoyn kai ayta, qa apodeixqei oti h ysterhsh twn esodwn den einai etsi opws fainetai.

PETOYRH: Kyrie Ekproswpe, 15 boyleytes toy PASOK, se erwthsh toys pros ton ypoyrgo Oikonomikwn, se asynhqista aysthro yfos, lew egw gia boyleytes ths sympoliteyshs, oysiastika askoyn kritikh sthn oikonomikh politikh ths kybernhshs, toylaxiston sta metra poy lambanontai kai se kapoies kinhseis. Qa hqela thn ektimhsh sas, ean symmerizeste aytes tis apoceis.

PETALWTHS: Ennoeite thn erwthsh poy egine gia thn Trapeza ths Ellados.

PETOYRH: Akribws.

PETALWTHS: Prwta ap` ola, den yparxei kritikh gia thn oikonomikh politikh ths kybernhshs. Einai safes oti oi boyleytes exoyn dikaiwma apo to Syntagma na askoyn to koinoboyleytiko toys ergo mesa apo tis diadikasies toy koinoboyleytikoy elegxoy kai yp` ayth thn ennoia kai h erwthsh ayth einai qemith kai fysika den ekfrazoyn tipote allo, pera apo thn agwnia toys. Apo kei kai pera, omws, gia to sygkekrimeno qema: Prwton, exei apanthsei to ypoyrgeio Oikonomikwn. Deyteron, kai o idios o Prwqypoyrgos exei anaferqei, meta apo sxetikh erwthsh toy k. Samara. Kai fysika, na ypenqymisoyme oti h Trapeza ths Ellados einai anejarthth. Einai apofash toy ypoyrgeioy Oikonomikwn kai ths kybernhshs to ti ginetai me ayth th diadikasia. Alla, apo kei kai pera kai emeis ws kybernhsh perimenoyme na oloklhrwqei h dikastikh ereyna poy brisketai se ejelijh ystera apo thn eisaggelikh paraggelia gi` ayto to qema.

PETOYRH: Ep` aytoy mia dieykrinish. To ``kritikh'' einai enas dikos moy xarakthrismos, o opoios nomizw prokyptei me enan emmeso, alla safh tropo. Ta erwthmata twn boyleytwn, ta symmerizeste;

PETALWTHS: Ta symmerizontai, profanws, oi boyleytes poy ypegracan thn erwthsh. Emeis ws kybernhsh exoyme qesmiko rolo kai fysika den mporoyme na agnohsoyme kai to qesmiko rolo kai thn anejarthsia ths Trapezas ths Ellados. Ws pros th diereynhsh, sas eipa einai se ejelijh dikastikh ereyna poy qa dei kai to an yparxei poiniko meros ths ypoqeshs.

MIXAHL: Ep` aytoy. Mas lete oti exei apanthsei o ypoyrgos Oikonomikwn kai o Prwqypoyrgos, gia to sygkekrimeno qema, ston k. Samara. To gegonos, omws, oti epanerxontai oi 15 boyleytes toy PASOK, mas kanei na ypoqesoyme oti den kalyfqhkan apo aytes tis apanthseis h oi apanthseis aytes den htan toso, ekeinh th stigmh, plhreis, giati h ypoqesh ejelissetai kai exoyn prokycei piqanotata stoixeia, apo o,ti fainetai apo th dikh toys erwthsh. Kai epishs, na mas diaceysete h na mas epibebaiwsete dhmosieymata oti o Prwqypoyrgos exei enoxlhqei para poly apo ayth toys thn prwtoboylia kai qewrei oti xalaei to kalo klima poy paei na dhmioyrghqei meta to Asfalistiko kai tis ejelijeis sthn oikonomia.

PETALWTHS: Prwta ap` ola, ws pros to prwto skelos ths erwthshs sas, apanthsa. Deyteron, epeidh diabazw kai egw ta dhmosieymata, ta opoia periexoyn kai diafora senaria, h kybernhsh den enoxleitai apo tis erwthseis twn boyleytwn. Einai sto plaisio toy koinoboyleytikoy toys ergoy kai mas endiaferei h anazhthsh ths alhqeias opoy kai an brisketai. Ws pros thn oysia, sas apanthsa hdh.

SIDERHS: Ep` aytoy: Exoyme ena megisto politiko gegonos. Eipate ``apanthse o Prwqypoyrgos''. Amfisbhtoyn thn apanthsh toy Prwqypoyrgoy oi boyleytes.

PETALWTHS: Den nomizw oti prokyptei kati tetoio apo thn erwthsh toys. Kai gia emas, safws kai den yparxei megisto h elaxisto politiko qema.

STRATAKHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, syxna-pykna sas qetoyme to erwthma peri anasxhmatismoy. Shmera, omws, prin apo ligo kai erxomenos edw, sas akoysa sto Flash na lete kai na milate gia anasxhmatismo, o opoios einai nomoteleiakos, exei mia nomoteleiakh sxesh. Ti shmainei ayto;

PETALWTHS: To periexomeno ths erwthshs ths synadelfoy sas htan ``oti kapote, omws, ginontan anasxhmatismoi kai apanthsa oti nomoteleiaka ginontai anasxhmatismoi. Ayto den shmainei oti qa ginei anasxhmatismos h oti yparxei qema anasxhmatismoy. En pash periptwsei, afoy moy dinete, gia allh mia fora, thn eykairia kai thn aformh, diaceydw oti tiqentai zhthmata anasxhmatismoy. Ayto poy eipa - kai to epanalambanw kai twra- einai oti h kybernhsh ergazetai sklhra, oloi oi ypoyrgoi se ola ta ypoyrgeia kai ayto poy mas endiaferei einai na proxwrhsei to kybernhtiko ergo kai malista otan ayto brisketai se ayth thn poly krisimh kamph.

KAKALHS: Epeidh kallierghsate mia eikona aisiodojias sthn arxh gia thn oikonomia, qa mporoysate na apanthsete sthn erwthsh enos syntajioyxoy pws qa zhsei me 400 kai 500 eyrw to mhna, me dedomeno oti katarghsate thn 13h kai th 14h syntajh, me dedomeno oti ``pagwsate'' tis syntajeis, ayjhsate toys emmesoys foroys; Afoy yparxei ayth h aisiodojia apo th meria ths kybernhshs, apanthste se ena syntajioyxo, pws qa zhsei me 400 kai 500 eyrw.

PETALWTHS: Ayto einai poly megalo erwthma, poy den lambanei omws ypoch oles tis parametroys.

KAKALHS: H politikh sas den pairnei ypoch ths toys anqrwpoys;

PETALWTHS: Eipa akribws to antiqeto. Einai ena megalo erwthma, to opoio den lambanei ypoch oles tis parametroys. Prwta ap` ola, emeis den qijame tis xamhles syntajeis.

KAKALHS: Th 13h den thn kocame apo aytoys;

PETALWTHS: Sas lew oti tis xamhles syntajeis den tis meiwsame. Isa-isa meiwsame tis syntajeis poy einai panw apo 1.400 eyrw. Apo kei kai pera, yphrxe amesh anagkh na yparjei ena asfalistiko systhma poy na einai biwsimo. Ena asfalistiko systhma poy na plhrwnetai ayth h syntajh, estw kai h xamhlh syntajh, giati eixame to ejhs dilhmma: Se dyo mhnes h stamatame na plhrwnoyme syntajeis h prospaqoyme na broyme ena tropo na yparxoyn estw kai aytes oi xamhles syntajeis poy hdh yparxoyn, gia na mporei to asfalistiko systhma na einai biwsimo. Apo kei kai pera, ayto poy eipame kai to janaleme, einai oti prospaqhsame mesa apo to asfalistiko systhma poy chfisthke, na exoyme ena kata to dynaton dikaio systhma, oso mas epitrepoyn oi synqhkes. Den kocame, etsi genikws, th 13h kai th 14h syntajh. Thn antikatasthsame me ena epidoma. Kai fysika, o idios o Prwqypoyrgos edwse thn prooptikh oti efoson beltiwqoyn ta oikonomika mas, kai gi` ayto leme oti arxizoyme na ginomaste aisiodojoi, qa yparxei fysika kai h beltiwsh twn syntajewn poy aforoyn eidikotera tis asqenesteres koinwnikes omades, alla kai oles tis koinwnikes omades poy lambanoyn syntajh. Ayth einai h merimna mas.

To megalo stoixhma poy bazoyme einai na anataxqei h ellhnikh oikonomia, prokeimenoy na mporoyme na dinoyme pio anqrwpines syntajeis kai na beltiwsoyme oles ekeines tis synqhkes toy Ellhna polith, o opoios plhttetai amesa.

Epishs, na epanalabw kati poy exw pei kata koron, afora kai proteraiothta ths kybernhshs na dhmioyrghqei ena dixty asfaleias, etsi wste oi meiwseis poy yparxoyn sta eisodhmata na mporoyn na ejoydeterwnontai kai na symplhrwnoyn to eisodhma apo thn koinwnikh prostasia, thn opoia exei poly megalh anagkh o Ellhnas poliths.

KAKALHS: Pws sxoliazete to gegonos oti symfwna me mia dhmoskophsh ths ``Kaqhmerinhs ths Kyriakhs'' 700.000 chfoforoi toy PASOK toy perasmenoy Oktwbrh briskontai hdh se diadikasia apomakrynshs apo to PASOK;

PETALWTHS: Oi dhmoskophseis einai ena shmantiko ergaleio. Etsi tis antimetwpizame pantote, akomh kai otan hmastan antipoliteysh. Me ton idio tropo tis antimetwpizoyme kai twra. Oi dhmoskophseis katagrafoyn kapoies taseis, otan ginontai swsta kai episthmonika, analoga me ta erwthmata poy tiqentai. Apo kei kai pera, emeis gnwrizoyme oti fernoyme se peras ena poly dyskolo ergo. Gnwrizoyme oti pairnoyme apofaseis, polles apo tis opoies einai sklhres kai tis opoies den qa qelame na pairnoyme. Den entassetai sto programma mas h lhch aytwn twn apofasewn. Exoyme na kanoyme, omws, me mia katastash, h opoia einai ektakth. Pairnoyme apofaseis ypo synqhkes poy den einai fysiologikes kai fysika den qa qelame na politeyomaste mesa se ayto to periballon. Alla gnwrizoyme oti ean den swsoyme thn ellhnikh oikonomia se ola ta epipeda, den qa mporoyme na laboyme pio dikaies kai pio eyxaristes apofaseis. Ayto poy antilambanomaste emeis apo thn epafh mas me ton polith, giati den perimenoyme tis dhmoskophseis gia na diapistwsoyme kapoia pragmata, den eimaste kleismenoi, ws kybernhsh, se ena gyalino kloybi, exoyme epafh me toys polites kai antilambanomaste kai ton palmo ths koinwnias kai thn agwnia poy aisqanetai h koinwnia sthn kaqhmerinh epibiwsh. Kai exoyme taxqei na antistrecoyme ayto to asxhmo klima ths oikonomias. Eimaste sigoyroi oti h koinwnia ayto to antilambanetai.

SEGKOS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, afoy gnwrizete tis dhmoskophseis poy, 7 stoys 10 katadikazoyn kai thn kybernhsh kai ta metra poy exei labei, giati tote o Prwqypoyrgos isxyrizetai synexws oti oi polites den sthrizoyn thn politikh toy; Den einai kai ayto mia meqodos politikhs ejapathshs;

PETALWTHS: Oxi. Sas anefera prohgoymenws oti emeis exoyme antilhch toy ti ginetai sthn koinwnia kai fysika emeis, antiqeta me th Nea Dhmokratia, eimaste mia kybernhsh poy den poreyetai symfwna me tis dhmoskophseis. As mhn jexname oti perasame mia ejaeth periodo diakybernhshs poy h kaqe politikh apofash ths Neas Dhmokratias krinotan apo to ti apantoyn oi polites kai oi chfoforoi sth dhmoskophsh ths prohgoymenhs hmeras. Ayto mas odhghse se ayth thn katastash. Emeis exoyme mia staqerh politikh kai mia politikh poy leei, diaswsh ths xwras se prwto epipedo kai se deytero epipedo beltiwsh twn synqhkwn kai efarmogh toy programmatos mas, enos pragmatika filodojoy kai stoxeymenoy programmatos. Prospaqoyme na kanoyme allages -oses einai dynates- kai mesa se ayth th dyskolh katastash. Epanalambanw oti ayto poy leei o kosmos, o aplos poliths, anejarthta apo to ti dhlwnei stis dhmoskophseis, einai oti sthrizei thn kybernhsh -ayth einai h aisqhsh mas- stis allages poy ginontai. Yfistatai aytes tis sklhres apofaseis me thn prooptikh na bgoyme apo thn krish kai me thn prooptikh na deijoyme ston Ellhna polith oti emeis politeyomaste me allo tropo kai oti sto telos qa exoyme mia koinwnia kai mia Politeia, h opoia qa einai pio dikaih. Ayth einai h dikh mas antilhch.

PETOYRH: Molis twra anaferqhkate sth beltiwsh toy programmatos kai me aformh ta qetika sxolia kai sto Eurogroup kai thn epityxh ejodo ths xwras stis agores, eipate oti kati allazei sthn oikonomia. Ayto shmainei epi toy prakteoy oti to 2011, otan qa epanakaqoristei h dhmosionomikh politikh ths kybernhshs, yparxei dynatothta na xalarwsoyn ta metra se o,ti afora toys misqoys kai tis syntajeis;

PETALWTHS: Kai o idios o Prwqypoyrgos exei desmeyqei, alla kai mesa sto asfalistiko nomosxedio problepetai oti qa ginoyn analogistikes meletes kai me bash aytes tis meletes mporei na prosarmozontai kai ta syntajiodotika zhthmata, etsi wste otan pragmatika beltiwnetai h oikonomia mas kai yparxei tetoia dynatothta poy na mhn diatarassei omws toys stoxoys ths staqerothtas kai ths beltiwshs poy exoyme qesei, ayth h beltiwsh qa perna kai ston Ellhna polith. Me tipote, omws, den qa fqasoyme sto shmeio na kanoyme paroxes, oi opoies qa baloyn se amfibolia to megalo stoixhma kai th megalh politikh poy exoyme xarajei, na anataxqei h ellhnikh oikonomia. Den qa kanoyme pisw, giati exoyme ypoxrewsh pros th xwra mas na th swsoyme, idiaitera oson afora sta oikonomika ths.

PETOYRH: Ayth h beltiwsh, sas rwthsa, qa ekfrastei kai to 2011;

PETALWTHS: Qa pernaei ston Ellhna polith, se ola ta epipeda. Kai fysika qa pernaei opoy mporei, me tis proypoqeseis poy sas eipa, kai se misqoys kai se syntajeis.

STRATAKHS: Qa moy epitrecete na qesw ena erwthma sthn idia bash. Afoy yparxei, loipon, ayth h aisiodojia oti qa ftiajoyn ta pragmata kai isws na eklaboyme kai ws prwto deigma tis ananewseis sthn ERT toy ypeyqynoy ypoyrgoy Politismoy se polydapanes ekpompes, qa plhrwqoyn oi symbasioyxoi toy ypoyrgeioy Politismoy, poy epi 20 mhnes orismenoi apo aytoys paramenoyn aplhrwtoi; Kai poso analghto mporei na einai ena kratos, otan exei ergazomenoys gia 20 mhnes aplhrwtoys, thn wra poy ananewnei symbaseis gia ekpompes ths tajews toy enos kai twn dyo ekatommyriwn.

PETALWTHS: Prwta ap` ola, to ``panhgyri'', giati ekei anafereste, poy ginotan sthn ERT epi tosa xronia, exei stamathsei kai exei kopei. Emeis, erxomaste me mia nea logikh, thn opoia deixnoyme hdh kai qa apodeixqei poly perissotero sto ameso mellon. Ean anafereste stis symbaseis poy eginan sto ypoyrgeio Politismoy kai sth xqesinh stash ergasias sthn Akropolh, pera apo to oti ayth h stash ergasias se ayto to sygkekrimeno diasthma apotelei plhgma gia ton toyrismo, kai ayto qa prepei na to analogistoyme oloi, to qema hdh exei lyqei. Kai exei lyqei pws; Gia na plhrwqoyn aytoi oi symbasioyxoi, me ton tropo poy eginan symbasioyxoi - kai se ayto qa mporesoyme na poyme polla pragmata kai kaneis den einai amoiros twn eyqynwn toy se ayth thn koinwnia- qa eprepe na yparxei mia nomoqetikh ryqmish, ayth poy hdh prowqei to ypoyrgeio Politismoy. Ayto to gnwrizoyn kai oi idioi oi symbasioyxoi. Epanalambanw oti gia na plhrwqoyn, qa prepei na yparxei nomoqetikh ryqmish. Hdh, to ypoyrgeio Politismoy exei probei stis diadikasies gia th nomoqetikh ryqmish, gia na plhrwqoyn oi misqoi poy toys ofeilontai. Apo kei kai pera, omws, kaneis den mporei na xrhsimopoiei tetoies meqodoys gia na ekbiasei th monimopoihsh toy. Pera apo to oti aytoi oi symbasioyxoi exoyn dikio sto oti den plhrwnontan kai pera apo to oti emeis epilyoyme ayto to zhthma ws kybernhsh, epanalambanw, oti h eikona sta mesa Ioylioy na erxontai oi toyristes toys opoioys anazhtoyme, toys opoioys caxnoyme, gia toys opoioys plhrwnoyme megales diafhmiseis sto ejwteriko gia na erqoyn kai na mhn mporoyn na mpoyn sthn Akropolh, einai kati poy einai eyqynh olwn mas. Kai kyriws ekeinwn poy kleinoyn thn Akropolh.

STRATAKHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, qa moy epitrecete na epimeinw ligo se ayto, giati den katanow poio einai megalytero plhgma, to na kleiseis thn Akropolh gia tesseris hmeres h oi xiliades toyristes poy perimenan ekei tesseris wres, na metaferoyn stis xwres toys to logo gia ton opoio paremeine h Akropolh kleistei.

PETALWTHS: Eseis lete oti oi toyristes metaferoyn oti den plhrwqhkan oi symbasioyxoi;

STRATAKHS: Bebaiws, ayto qa metaferoyn.

PETALWTHS: Tote, na ejhghsw thn apanthsh moy kai stoys toyristes. To briefing na to dianeimoyme kai sto dieqnh Typo gia na yparxei kai apanthsh. Nomizw oti kaqenas mporei na bgalei ta symperasmata toy.

XIDIROGLOY: Giati epimenei h kybernhsh, k. Ekproswpe, na paroysiazei me melana xrwmata enwpion jenwn thn oikeia pragmatikothta; Pws qa allajei to klima dieqnws, alla kai sthn oikonomias mas; Pws qa erqoyn ependytes, akomh kai toyristes, opws anaferqhkate prin apo ligo, an synexistei ayth h praktikh ek meroys ths kybernhshs;

PETALWTHS: Den katalaba poy anafereste.

XIDIROGLOY: Anaferomai sta osa eipe o Prwqypoyrgos sto Symposio ths Symhs.

PETALWTHS: Prwta ap` ola, den mporoyme na krycoyme tipota. Den einai oti twra perigrafetai h ellhnikh oikonomia me melana xrwmata. Isa-isa, twra eimaste se ayth th fash poy kai h dieqnhs koinh gnwmh anaferetai me shmeia beltiwshs kai aisiodojias gia th xwra mas. Kai ayto einai para poly shmantiko. Einai akribws h praktikh twn prohgoymenwn kybernhsewn poy prospaqoysan na krycoyn apo toys Ellhnes polites ta pragmatika problhmata kai se deytero epipedo na ejapathsoyn toys etairoys mas me ta ceydh stoixeia poy estelnan. Me to na prospaqeis na kryceis to problhma h na ejapathseis, fanhke oti den mporeis na kerdiseis tipota. Antiqeta, otan katagrafeis to zhthma kai otan kaleis malista kai jenes proswpikothtes, akrws diakekrimenes, na symbaloyn sthn epilysh, oxi toy ellhnikoy problhmatos, alla toy dieqnoys problhmatos, fysika syzhtwntas omws kai gia ta ellhnika zhthmata, tote einai poy lynontai kai ta problhmata kai sth xwra mas. Einai teleiws antestrammeno ayto poy moy eipate, apo ayto poy pisteyei h ellhnikh kybernhsh. Kai apodeixqhke oti ayto poy pisteyei exei pragmatika kai ta apotelesmata kai ta blepoyme.

KOYTRAS: Na kanw treis erwthseis. H prwth erwthsh einai, ean symmerizetai h kybernhsh tis dhlwseis toy k. Kastanidh peri dhmokratikhs nomimopoihshs. H deyterh, afora thn antidrash ths kybernhshs stoys dikastikoys poy arnoyntai na apografoyn kai stoys panepisthmiakoys poy prosxwrhsan sto idio klamp, as poyme. Kai to trito, einai oti o Prwqypoyrgos eipe ston Poro oti den ftaiei to kratos pronoias gia thn krish. Wstoso, oi perikopes poy ginontai mexri stigmhs einai sto kratos pronoias. Den anairei to ena to allo;

PETALWTHS: Ws pros tis dhlwseis Kastanidh, den tiqetai zhthma. O idios o Prwqypoyrgos, se prosfath malista synenteyjh toy pera apo th gnwsth qesh ths kybernhshs, exei dhlwsei oti den tiqetai kanena zhthma eklogwn. Den yparxei kamia skech eklogwn. Egw apo edw, ekproswpwntas thn kybernhsh, exw pei oti opoios qelei ekloges, as bgei na to pei kai na tis aitiologhsei. Fysika o k. Kastanidhs den milhse gia ekloges. Einai pragmatika polyteleia na syzhtame gia ekloges, otan exoyme na kanoyme ena toso shmantiko ergo kai otan arxise ayto to ergo na apodidei karpoys, estw bhma pros bhma, opws to blepoyme.

Ws pros thn apografh, einai mia basikotath, oxi kainotomia, mia basikotath ekplhrwsh anagkhs, me prwtoboylia fysika kai me armodiothta twn ypoyrgeiwn Eswterikwn kai Oikonomikwn, etsi wste na mpei mia stoixeiwdhs tajh se ayto to xaos poy onomazetai ellhniko Dhmosio. Otan eimaste isws kai h monadikh xwra - eidika anaptygmenh- poy den gnwrizei posoys dhmosioys ypallhloys plhrwnei, to stoixeiwdes poy mporoysame na kanoyme kai to eixame yposxeqei kai eixame desmeyqei kai prin kai meta tis ekloges, einai se prwto epipedo na apografoyn oi dhmosioi ypallhloi kai deyteron, na dhmioyrghqei h eniaia arxh plhrwmwn, etsi wste na mhn plhrwnetai kaneis apo to ellhniko Dhmosio ean den exei apografei hdh me th diadikasia thn opoia efarmozoyme. Kapoia texnika zhthmata poy yphrxan, fysika epilyontai. Hdh, epilyqhke to qema kai twn dikastikwn kai twn panepisthmiakwn. Ayto poy menei einai h poly shmantikh prajh ths apografhs. Kai malista, epeidh akoysa oti den yphrxan ypodomes kai gia ena mplak-aoyt poy egine, otan epixeirhsan na apografoyn thn idia stigmh 200.000 dhmosioi ypallhloi, einai epomeno oti to hlektroniko systhma qa exei kapoio problhma, to opoio hdh exei apokatastaqei, hdh exei mpei tajh kai me to AFM kai h apografh ayth proxwra me ton kalytero tropo.

Oson afora to trito skelos ths erwthshs sas, einai safes oti milwntas o Prwqypoyrgos sto Symposio ths Symhs, alla kai se polles alles analyseis poy exei kanei, eipe to aytonohto, eidika gia mia kybernhsh, opws einai h kybernhsh toy PASOK: To kratos pronoias, safws kai den eyqynetai gia thn katastash sthn oikonomia. To exoyme pei para polles fores. Ayto poy eyqynetai einai h diafqora poy yparxei edw kai para polla xronia kai poy bebaia ``agriece'', sthn kyriolejia, thn teleytaia ejaetia me th diakybernhsh ths Neas Dhmokratias. Einai h adiafaneia, einai to kratos to opoio den apotelei to skopo toy na ejyphretei ton polith kai polles alles parametroi, tis opoies exoyme analysei pro polloy. Oxi aplws den eyqynetai to kratos pronoias, alla einai ayto to stoixeio toy kratoys poy emeis qa enisxysoyme, giati o Ellhnas poliths xreiazetai na prostateyqei kai se epipedo pronoias. Den einai h prwth fora poy to leei h kybernhsh. Einai qesh mas, einai arxh mas kai fysika den askoyme politikh me kamia antifash ep` aytoy.

KOYTRAS: Sas eipa oti ayto poy lete oti o Prwqypoyrgos milhse gia to kratos pronoias, oti ftaiei h diafqora, wstoso oi perikopes den ginontai apo th diafqora, oi perikopes ginontai apo to kratos pronoias, kobete apo tis syntajeis.

PETALWTHS: Kai egw sas lew oti oi perikopes ginontai apo th diafqora. Oi perikopes ginontai apo thn peristolh twn dapanwn. Oi perikopes ginontai apo ena systhma, apo ena kratos poy proslambanei kai proagei toys ypallhloys toy me diafanes systhma kai oxi me to anajiokratiko poy yphrxe epi Neas Dhmokratias kai mia seira apo zhthmata poy pragmatika qetoyn th diafqora kai thn adiafaneia ypo diwgmon apo ayth thn kybernhsh. Ayto to blepoyme kaqhmerina kai me to forologiko systhma poy exoyme qespisei, alla kai me to asfalistiko systhma poy einai kata to dynaton dikaiotero. Kai fysika, ean afhname to Asfalistiko na katarreysei, tote htan poy qa katerree kai to kratos pronoias. Ayth einai h apoch mas.

POLYMEROS: Mias poy milame gia diafqora kai diafaneia, xqes o genikos epiqewrhths dhmosias dioikhshs kathggeile kati poly sobaro: oti kaqysteroyn na ekdikastoyn polles ypoqeseis kai malista yparxei diakrith metaxeirish epwnymwn. H kybernhsh skeftetai na analabei prwtoboylies nomoqetikoy periexomenoy prokeimenoy na yparjoyn ameses lyseis sth Dikaiosynh kai na mhn blepoyme ayta ta fainomena poy kathggeile o k. Rakitzhs;

PETALWTHS: Prwta apo ola, na ypenqymisw oti h epitaxynsh ths Dikaiosynhs einai stis proteraiothtes ths kybernhshs. Epixeirhqhke kai apo alles kybernhseis eite gonima, eite mh gonima. To qema einai oti pragmatika yparxei kaqysterhsh sthn aponomh ths Dikaiosynhs. Kai den to leme emeis, to lene kai ta eyrwpaika organa, to eyrwpaiko Dikasthrio apo to opoio exoyme polles fores katadikastei gia kaqysterhsh sthn aponomh ths Dikaiosynhs kai malista plhrwsame kai prostima. To zhtoymeno einai ena dikonomiko systhma poy qa epispeydei kai qa epitaxynei th Dikaiosynh. Kai hdh to ypoyrgeio Dikaiosynhs brisketai sthn kateyqynsh ths oloklhrwshs twn protasewn, etsi wste na ginei kai nomos toy kratoys. Apo kei kai pera ws pros th diakritikh metaxeirish twn epwnymwn, poy lete kai poy eipe kai o k. Rakitzhs, ofeilw na pw oti h Dikaiosynh einai mia anejarthth ejoysia kai fysika kanei kai prepei na kanei th doyleia ths kata to Syntagma. Ayto einai to zhtoymeno.

POLYMEROS: Dhladh, den thn kanei th doyleia ths swsta; Ayto eipe, xqes, o k. Rakitzhs. Den zhtaw apo esas na moy peite an thn kanei h den thn kanei swsta. Ayta poy leei o k. Rakitzhs epirriptei eyqynes sth Dikaiosynh, oti kati den paei kala.

PETALWTHS: Einai qema toy k. Rakitzh, o opoios einai Proedros mias Anejarthths Arxhs. Emeis, ws kybernhsh, ws Politeia exoyme thn ypoxrewsh - kai ayto kanoyme - na bohqoyme kai apo apoch ypodomwn kai apo apoch nomoqethmatwn th Dikaiosynh, etsi wste na epitaxynqei kai na beltiwqei h leitoyrgia ths, opws prepei na ginetai.

XIDIROGLOY: Eipate oti exoyme thn ypoxrewsh gia tis ypodomes. Omws, diabazoyme shmera sta dhmosieymata oti h kybernhsh exei afhsei ``jekremasto'' ton epiqewrhth dhmosias dioikhshs. Mporeite na moy peite to giati;

PETALWTHS: Ti shmainei ``jekremasto ton epiqewrhth dhmosias dioikhshs'';

XIDIROGLOY: Oson afora sth qhteia toy.

PETALWTHS: Emeis, ayto poy prospaqoyme na kanoyme einai pragmatika na bohqoyme kai th stelexwsh kai tis ypodomes. Opoy yparxoyn zhthmata ta epilyoyme. Kai fysika eimaste h kybernhsh, h opoia tis anejarthtes Arxes tis exei anagei se ena poly shmantiko zhthma ths dhmokratikhs leitoyrgias toy kratoys kai emeis tis sebomaste.

MARAQIAS: Hqela na rwthsw, eipate prin oti h kybernhsh den poreyetai me bash tis dhmoskophseis. H chfos twn politwn stis dhmotikes kai perifereiakes ekloges ton Noembrio qa kaqorisei to mellon ths kybernhshs;

PETALWTHS: Emas ayto poy mas endiaferei einai stis dhmotikes kai perifereiakes ekloges toy Noembrioy na ekfrastei o Ellhnas poliths me ton kalytero tropo, ws pros thn Topikh Aytodioikhsh. Kai fysika na exoyme thn plhrh leitoyrgia enos neoy qesmoy ths Topikhs Aytodioikhshs, toso ws pros toys dhmoys, oso kai kata meizona logo sto neo qesmo ths aireths perifereias. Ekei einai to megalo stoixhma. Na janakanoyme thn Topikh Aytodioikhsh baqro ths Dhmokratias. Na stamathsei ayth h sygkentrwsh toy kratoys kai fysika na janabroyn oi polites thn ekfrash toys mesa apo thn Topikh Aytodioikhsh, apokentrwmenh, qesmoqethmenh kai me ton kalytero tropo.

SIDERHS: Kat arxas, h qhteia toy k. Rakitzh exei teleiwsei apo to fqinopwro kai akoma oyte ton exete diwjei, oyte toy exete ananewsei th qhteia. Toso dyskolo htan; Kai lete oti prospaqeite na bohqhsete na lyqoyn ta problhmata. To deytero, ypoqesh ergasias. An den hsastan ypoyrgos kai kybernhtikos ekproswpos kai blepate mia kybernhsh, o enas ypoyrgos na zhtaei ekloges, o allos ypoyrgos na leei: na mhn deixnoyme to daxtylo stoys polites giati qa mas deijoyn ta pente daxtyla, alloys ypoyrgoys na deixnontai metajy toys, Oikonomias kai Oikonomikwn. Oi boyleytes na mplokaroyn nomosxedia twn ypoyrgwn, ti qa legate; Oti ayth h kybernhsh einai arkoyntws fileleyqerh kai sebetai thn aytonomia toy logoy twn melwn ths h ayth h kybernhsh einai plhrws asyntonisth me ena epiteleio mh ikano na th dioikhsei;

PETALWTHS: Prwta apo ola den to gnwrizw gia mplokarisma nomosxediwn apo toys boyleytes.

SIDERHS: Phre pisw kapote h k. Katselh...

PETALWTHS: Ayto den einai mplokarisma. Ayto shmainei dhmokratikh leitoyrgia. Kai otan exoyme na kanoyme me th beltiwsh twn nomoqethmatwn - to exoyme pei para polles fores - kai nomosxedia qa janafernoyme kai qa janagyrizoyme, giati einai lepta zhthmata, ta opoia exoyn na kanoyn me nomotexnika qemata. Kai fysika, alimono, an den exoyme thn eyelijia na beltiwnoyme ta nomoqethmata mas. Apo kei kai pera, h kybernhsh ayth me tis synqhkes katw apo tis opoies leitoyrgei, kanei para poly kala th doyleia ths. Kai fysika oi ypoyrgoi exoyn thn eleyqeria na lene tis apoceis toys se shmantika zhthmata. Kai qa legame oti qa htan asyntonisth ayth h kybernhsh, ean den parhgage ergo. Emas mas endiaferei ayto. Kai epeidh h paragwgh toy ergoy apo ayth thn kybernhsh kai yp aytes tis synqhkes einai prwtognwrh gia ta ellhnika dedomena, emeis eimaste akrws ikanopoihmenoi apo th leitoyrgia ths kybernhshs.

STRATAKHS: Wraia, na dexqoyme oti paragei ergo. Pisteyete oti h kybernhsh ayth qa kriqei apo ayta poy ekane h apo ayta poy den exei kanei mexri twra. Giati akoyme oti argeite sthn oikonomia. Akoyme oti argeite sth dhmosia dioikhsh.

PETALWTHS: Oyte sth dhmosia dioikhsh argoyme, oyte sthn oikonomia. H kybernhsh ayth krinetai kaqe mera kai mas endiaferei, fysika, sto telos na mporoyme na exoyme enan apologismo, o opoios qa symfwnei me toys stoxoys mas, tis proteraiothtes mas kai tis ajies poy exoyme balei sth diakybernhsh mas.

KOYTRAS: Qa hqela na sas rwthsw, ean qa yparjei kapoia antidrash ths ellhnikhs kybernhshs sthn apofash ths UNESCO poy edwse toyrkikh yphkoothta ston Karagkiozh kai ean exete kapoio sxolio gia to gegonos oti o prwhn proedros toys SYNASPISMOY k. Kwnstantopoylos einai pleon proedros ston Panaqhnaiko.

PETALWTHS: Gia to prwto qa enhmerwqw apo to Ypoyrgeio Politismoy. To gnwrizw kai egw ws gegonos, ws eidhsh, alla qa sas metaferw thn epishmh apoch ths kybernhshs. Gia to deytero ti na pw; Makari na exoyme filaqlo pneyma kai na asxoloymaste me to podosfairo.

POLYMEROS: Mporei na doyme to antiqeto; Dhladh, enas aqlhtikos paragontas na perasei sthn politikh skhnh;

PETALWTHS: Exoyn epityxia oi aqlhtikoi paragontes, giati einai kai dhmofileis.

XIDIROGLOY: Meta thn katadikh ths xwras mas apo to eyrwpaiko dikasthrio gia th mh xorhghsh toy aytonohtoy dikaiwmatos chfoy stoys Ellhnes omogeneis, ti skopeyei na kanei h kybernhsh; Qa meinete sthn arnhsh sas na apokleiete toys omogeneis me diafores profaseis apo thn eklogikh diadikasia;

PETALWTHS: Emeis, oxi aplws den apokleioyme toys omogeneis apo thn eklogikh diadikasia, alla eimaste aytoi poy eixame ferei protash etsi wste oi omogeneis kai na chfizoyn, oxi omws na chfizoyn texnhta kai na ginontai aplws mia eklogikh omada, poy emeis, edw, oi ths Elladas qa toys episkeptomaste gia na mas dwsoyn thn chfo toys. Emeis ayto poy qeloyme, kai ekei eixame th diafwnia me th Nea Dhmokratia, einai na ekfrazontai oi omogeneis me omogeneis antiproswpoys. Kai epeidh sthn protash nomoy poy eixame kataqesei kai sthn apoch poy exoyme, ayto einai poly tekmhriwmeno kai diasfalizetai h amesh ekproswphsh twn omogenwn me toys omogeneis, etsi wste kai ta problhmata toys na erxontai me ton kalytero tropo sto ellhniko koinoboylio, alla kai stoys omogeneis na dwsoyme thn ajia poy prepei. Qa exoyme nomosxedio, to opoio pragmatika kai oysiastika oxi aplws qa xorhgei thn chfo stoys omogeneis, alla qa yparxei kai kalyterh apotelesmatikothta kai kalyterh ekfrash twn problhmatwn toys mesa sto ellhniko Koinoboylio.

MHLIWNHS: Hqela na sas rwthsw se ti energeies skopeyei na probei h kybernhsh sxetika me thn apo xqes to brady ejodo toy wkeanografikoy ploioy Piri Reis sta oria ths apokleisqeishs oikonomikhs zwnhs Elladas kai Kyproy.

PETALWTHS: Prwta apo ola yparxei antidrash apo to ypoyrgeio Ejwterikwn. H ellhnikh kybernhsh proaspizei ta kyriarxika ths dikaiwmata kai energei analoga me tis ejelijeis. Ayto einai dedomeno. Kai fysika gia allh mia fora to ypoyrgeio Ejwterikwn kalese thn Toyrkia na mhn dhmioyrgei antifaseis anamesa sta logia kai sta erga ths. Emeis, parakoloyqoyme to olo zhthma, oxi ej apostasews, alla drastika. Hdh exoyme probei stis aparaithtes energeies ws ellhniko kratos kai fysika dhlwnoyme gia allh mia fora oti kaqe energeia ths Toyrkias, h opoia jefeygei apo thn dieqnh nomimothta, qa exei ameses epiptwseis kai stis ejelijeis kai stis sxeseis ths me th xwra mas, alla kai qa to qetoyme ws zhthma stis sxeseis ths me thn Eyrwpaikh Enwsh.

Sas eyxaristw.

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