Greek Government Press Briefing, 00-09-29

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

YPOYRGEIO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS

Aqhna, 29 Septembrioy 2000

JENOY TYPOY APO TON YPOYRGO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS

KAI KYBERNHTIKO EKPROSWPO DHMHTRH REPPA

Geia sas.

Den einai kaqoloy eyxaristo na jekinw thn enhmerwsh anaferomenos se nekroys. Gnwrizete oti perisyneleghsan akomh epta nekroi. Synolika, o ariqmos twn nekrwn exei anelqei stoys 72. Ta ariqmhtika dedomena poy anaferoyme, apo thn prwth stigmh, einai sxetika giati qa prepei kai h idia h etaireia na aposafhnisei posa htan ta atoma poy synolika epebainan sto ploio. Einai, asfalws, ena ergo oxi eykolo, giati gnwrizete oti polla atoma, logw hlikias h idiothtas, den exoyn ekdwsei eisithrio. Oi ereynes apo dytes synexizontai se oloys toys xwroys toy ploioy.

Prepei, akomh, na pw oti oi Dikastikes Arxes poy exoyn epilhfqei, exoyn apaggeilei kathgories gia kakoyrghmatikes prajeis. Kratoyntai melh, stelexh toy plhrwmatos, ta opoia oi dikastikes arxes ypoballoyn sthn problepomenh anakritikh diadikasia. Ayto poy exei shmasia, einai afenos men ta swstika synergeia na synexisoyn to ergo toys mexri teloys kai afeteroy, to syntomotero dynato, na apodoqoyn eyqynes se aytoys poy tis exoyn. Etsi wste, afoy oloklhrwqoyn oi dikastikes ereynes, na gnwrizoyme poioi einai aytoi poy eyqynontai kai na analaboyn thn eyqynh ayth, symfwna me osa problepoyn oi nomoi toy kratoys mas.

H taxeia aponomh dikaiosynhs, gnwrizete oti einai ena qema poy apasxolei edw kai poly kairo th kybernhsh. Exei apotelesei antikeimeno problhmatismoy epaneilhmmenws, toso sto plaisio twn synergasiwn toy Prwqypoyrgoy me ton ypoyrgo Dikaiosynhs, oso kai sto plaisio synergasiwn ypo ton Prwqypoyrgo me eyryterh synqesh. Mas apasxoloyn oi allages poy prepei na ginoyn sth mexri shmera akoloyqoymenh dikonomia, prokeimenoy to syntomotero dynato, na oloklhrwnontai oi dikastikes ereynes kai na ekdidontai apofaseis. Idiws, malista, se tetoies periptwseis, poy exoyn poly krisimo xarakthra.

Opws gnwrizete sth xqesinh synedriash toy to Y.S. asxolhqhke me ayth thn tragwdia. Opws htan anamenomeno, ejantlhqhke ekei h syzhthsh, giati eprepe o armodios Ypoyrgos na anaferei to synolo twn stoixeiwn poy synqetoyn thn tragwdia. H epomenh synedriash toy Y.S., thn erxomenh Pempth, qa exei ws antikeimeno ta qemata ths politikhs sto xwro ths Emporikhs Naytilias. Ayto einai to endedeigmeno giati -kata mia tragikh symptwsh -mporei na pei kaneis- oloklhrwnontai oi ekqeseis me ta symperasmata twn epitropwn poy exoyn sygkrothqei, hdh apo to kalokairi, me ayto akribws to antikeimeno. Gia na eimai pio safhs kai katatopistikos qetw ypoch sas anakoinwseis toy ypoyrgeioy Emporikhs Naytilias, stis 11 Ioylioy 2000. Opws, loipon, anaferetai stis anakoinwseis aytes, apofasisthke tote h sygkrothsh epitrophs, poy qa ejetasei tis kateyqynthries grammes, to neo plaisio politikhs ston tomea ths Emporikhs Naytilias. Einai sth diaqesh sas ta Deltia Typoy poy anaferontai sth sygkrothsh twn epitropwn kai to antikeimeno toys. Telika oi epitropes poy leitoyrghsan einai dyo: H mia gia to qesmiko plaisio, se o,ti afora thn apeleyqerwsh ths aktoploias kai h allh me antikeimeno thn pontoporo naytilia. Stis epitropes aytes exoyn symbalei -prokeimenoy na odhghqoyn sthn ekdosh enos telikoy porismatos- ekproswpoi olwn twn forewn. Kai twn ergodotwn-efoplistwn kai twn ergazomenwn. Yphrje, epishs, symmetoxh empeirognwmonwn kai eidikwn, anqrwpwn kyroys, poy exoyn gnwsh aytwn twn qematwn, kaqws epishs symmetoxh ekproswpwn toy ypoyrgeioy Emporikhs Naytilias kai toy Limenikoy Swmatos.

Aytes tis hmeres -giati h proqesmia poy eixe teqei htan ws to telos Septembrioy- qa perielqoyn sto ypoyrgeio Emporikhs Naytilias ta porismata, sta opoia katelhjan aytes oi epitropes, oi opoies leitoyrghsan epi dyo kai pleon mhnes. Basei aytwn twn porismatwn qa eishghqei o armodios ypoyrgos, sthn epomenh synedriash toy Y.S., prokeimenoy na lhfqoyn shmantikes apofaseis.

Gnwrizete -ayto to anaferw parepimptontws- oti dhmosia, kai kat epanalhch, edw kai para poly kairo o Prwqypoyrgos exei milhsei gia thn arsh toy prostateytismoy. Ola ayta ta anaferw giati qelw, ayth thn wra -poy pragmatika oloi eimaste sygklonismenoi- na epishmanw oti exoyn doylecei anqrwpoi, prokeimenoy na entopisoyn ta problhmata poy yparxoyn sto isxyon qesmiko plaisio, oytws wste na laboyme, sth synexeia, tis kalyteres dynates apofaseis.

Qa moy epitrecete, telos, na pw oti peran ths ereynas poy kanei h taktikh Dikaiosynh me th syndromh kai twn armodiwn yphresiwn toy Limenikoy Swmatos, o ypoyrgos Naytilias, apo thn prwth stigmh, exei paraggeilei ereyna pros pasa kateyqynsh. Bebaiws, otan leme pros pasa ``kateyqynsh'', ennooyme ereyna h opoia afora thn tragwdia. Alla ayth h ereyna sxetizetai me oloys ekeinoys toys foreis poy emmesws h amesws emplekontai se ayth th drasthriothta, eite einai h sygkekrimenh etaireia, eite einai oi yphresies toy ypoyrgeioy Emporikhs Naytilias h toy Limenikoy Swmatos, eite einai alles yphresies, oi opoies exoyn symmetoxh se ayto ton tomea drashs.

Qa hqela, epishs, prin dexqw tis erwthseis sas, na sas enhmerwsw oti o Prwqypoyrgos epikoinwnhse thlefwnika me ton Proedro ths Kyproy k. Klhridh, Antallajan apoceis gia thn ejelijh twn syzhthsewn sto plaisio toy OHE. Gnwrizete hdh oti h katalhjh toy 4oy gyroy den apefere apotelesmata. Anamenetai neos gyros synomiliwn. Kai, opws panta, oi dyo paragontes qa exoyn synexh epikoinwnia. Exw thn eykairia, na epanalabw -ayto tonise kai o Prwqypoyrgos ston Proedro ths kypriakhs Dhmokratias- oti h Ellada einai mazi me thn Kypro se ayth thn prospaqeia. Me opoies dynameis diaqetoyme se politiko kai diplwmatiko epipedo, symballoyme, wste o dikaios agwnas twn Kypriwn na odhghsei se sygkekrimena qetika apotelesmata. Me mia lysh h opoia qa einai symfwnh me to plaisio poy exei apofasisei, edw kai poly kairo, o OHE. Mia lysh biwsimh, h opoia qa antapokrinetai stis prospaqeies poy exoyme kanei, mexri twra, h kypriakh kybernhsh, oi ellhnikes kybernhseis, olos o Ellhnismos. Kai bebaia, me tis apofaseis poy exei yioqethsei kai basei twn opoiwn energei h prepei na energei o dieqnhs paragontas.

Akoyw tis erwthseis sas.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Epeidh apo epitropes exoyme xortasei, giati idies epitropes ftiajate kai otan eginan oi seismoi kai akomh den exoyn breqei oyte oi fakeloi, oyte exoyn apodoqei eyqynes poyqena, mporeite na moy peite ean kapoios aisqanetai apo thn kybernhsh, an diaqetei h exei kapoia eyaisqhsia kai prepei na paraithqei;

REPPAS: Mplekete dyo diaforetika qemata. To ena qema afora thn apodosh eyqynwn. Oi eyqynes apodidontai me syntetagmeno tropo. H Politeia mas einai dhmokratikh, exei qesmoys, arxes kai organa. Den eimaste aytarxiko kratos. Den eimaste mia Politeia opoy hgemonas h ekproswpoi toy ekdidoyn apofaseis kai epiballoyn poines kata to dokoyn. Qa prepei na sebastoyme ayth th diadikasia. Ekfrazontas th lyph mas gi aytoys poy exasan th zwh toys, gia toys oikeioys toys poy dokimazontai, prepei na poyme oti kai aytoi poy mporei na apodeixqei oti exoyn barytath eyqynh, dikaioyntai ths prostasias poy problepetai sto dikonomiko systhma ths xwras. Oson afora, twra, to allo qema poy qesate qa moy epitrecete na pw oti ayth einai mia poly eykolh proseggish. H kybernhsh, asfalws, den niwqei kala den einai ikanopoihmenh. Kaneis den einai ikanopoihmenos otan yparxei estw ki enas nekros. Alla, einai megalh h apostash anamesa se ayth thn pragmatikothta kai sthn apaithsh anqrwpoqysiwn, me tropo o opoios -qa moy epitrecete na pw- den exei kamia sxesh kai me ayto to idio to koinoboyleytiko dhmokratiko systhma. Yparxei eyaisqhsia. Ayth h eyaisqhsia apodeiknyetai me ton kalytero tropo, otan ta kybernhtika stelexh prosferoyn sto bwmo toy kaqhkontos, prokeimenoy me swstes apofaseis, me analhch prwtoboyliwn, na diorqwsoyme ta kakws keimena. Exoyme kanei , ws xwra, terastia proodo se para polloys tomeis kai ayto, asfalws, anagnwrizetai apo oloys. Qa prepei na synexisoyme thn prospaqeia mas, giati polla einai ta kena kai oi elleiceis, polla prepei na kanoyme akomh. Etsi niwqoyme emeis to xreos mas. Kai sas parakalw, epeidh einai poly krisimh h peristash kai to qema poy mas apasxolei, etsi na to proseggizoyme oloi. Perasame persi mia dokimasia me toys seismoys. Oi seismoi, bebaiws, den prokaloyntai apo anqrwpino paragonta, apo ameleia, apo laqos. Edw, exoyme na antimetwpisoyme ena allhs tajhs problhma poy egine mesa se ligh wra kai oloklhrwqhke me tis tragikes synepeies toy, ekeinh thn wra. Qelw na pw oti kaqe fora qa prepei na ejetazoyme ta dedomena me tropo sygkekrimeno. Den einai oles oi katastaseis poy antimetwpizoyme idies. Alla blepw dystyxws, oti se oles tis katastaseis, poy, opws eipa, den einai idies, katalhgoyme, gia logoys poy mporw na ypoqesw, se mia eykolh kathgoria. Nomizw oti aytos den einai enas orqologikos kai dikaios tropos gia na proseggizoyme ta qemata kai na lynoyme ta problhmata. Emeis epixeiroyme, prospaqoyme na lysoyme ta problhmata. Se polloys tomeis exoyme kanei megalh proodo. Alloy einai mikroterh kai alloy den exei syntelestei h proodos poy qa qelame. Gia ola ayta, omws, mas krinei o ellhnikos laos kai pairnei tis apofaseis toy.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Eiste eyxaristhmenoi, dhladh, apo thn olh kinhtopoihsh toy kratikoy kai kybernhtikoy mhxanismoy meta apo oktw wres;

REPPAS: Eimaste to idio lyphmenoi, oso ki eseis, gia ta qymata ayths ths tragwdias.

PAPPA: Yparxei mia epitroph Diaxeirishs Krisewn. Einai qesmiko organo. Sthn prokeimenh periptwsh giati den synedriase;

REPPAS: Gnwrizete poly kala oti ayto to peristatiko -to eipa prin, to ypainixqhka, nomizw oti sas apanthsa- arxise kai teleiwse mesa se ligh wra. Ayth h diypoyrgikh epitroph qa eixe nohma na synedriasei gia na antimetwpisei problhmata, ta opoia zhtoyn lysh. Ayto poy prepei na kanoyme twra einai oi, kata periptwsh, armodioi na kanoyn to ergo toys: Gia to qema ths dikastikhs ereynas oi dikastikoi, kyriws. Dhladh, ta organa ths taktikhs dikaiosynhs, alla kai ta organa toy Limenikoy. Gia to ergo ths diaswshs, oi dytes kai oi alloi eidikoi. Den exei kanena nohma na synedriasoyme gia na poyme oti prepei kapoioi na kanoyn to aytonohto. Oi apofaseis poy exei parei h kybernhsh, me ton armodio ypoyrgo kai opoioys alloys exoyn synarmodiothta, aforoyn th bohqeia poy prepei na prosferoyme se ekeinoys poy eplhghsan me ton enan h allo tropo. Ayto den einai qema syzhthshs se mia diypoyrgikh epitroph.

MIXAHL: Toso o Prwqypoyrgos, xqes -opws mas anakoinwse edw o k. Xythrhs- oso kai o k. Papoytshs kai o Arxhgos toy Limenikoy Swmatos, apo thn prwth stigmh poy pleon diapistwqhke to eyros ths tragwdias, milhsan gia ereynes se baqos kai apleto fws. Qelw na rwthsw me poia exeggya mporoyn na ginoyn aytes oi ereynes; Kai sas fernw ws paradeigma oti ena xrono meta to tragiko symban toy FALCON akomh anazhtoyme toys ypeyqynoys.

REPPAS: H apanthsh moy einai poly logikh. Gnwrizete oti to porisma apo thn armodia roymanikh yphresia -poy eixe armodiothta na kanei olo ayton ton elegxo gia na ekdwsei porisma- hrqe prosfata se dikh mas gnwsh, polloys mhnes, sxedon ena xrono, meta. Gnwrizete, epishs, oti oi yphresies ths xwras mas poy exoyn analogh armodiothta epilambanontai kai qeloyn na diatypwsoyn to diko toys porisma. H kaqysterhsh ayth, poy parathreitai meta apo tetoia fainomena h katastaseis, dhmioyrgei pragmatika mia pikria, se oloys ekeinoys poy qewroyn oti exei egkaqidryqei ena kaqestws atimwrhsias. Den einai etsi. Giati antilambaneste, pws enw prepei na kanoyme oles ekeines tis dikonomikoy xarakthra allages, prokeimenoy na syntomeytei o xronos aponomhs dikaiosynhs -kai mas apasxolei ayto to qema, to exete akoysei, to gnwrizete, poly prin prokycei to sygkekrimeno qlibero symban- apo thn allh, anagnwrizete, paradexeste oti den exoyme diorisei entetalmena kybernhtika organa, ta opoia qa asxolhqoyn me to antikeimeno kai qa ekdwsoyn tis apofaseis toys symfwna me tis dikes mas epiloges, symfwna me krithria ta opoia mporei na exoyn kai politika xarakthristika. Kaqe allo. Ta organa, ta opoia h Politeia mas problepei na leitoyrgoyn kai na epilambanontai tetoiwn qematwn, einai ayta poy qa prepei na kanoyn to ergo toys aperispasta, me idiaiterh eyaisqhsia enocei enos tetoioy megaloy problhmatos, poy exei kolossiaies diastaseis, logw twn pollwn qymatwn kai epishs gia tis entypwseis poy dhmioyrgoyntai, gia thn cyxologia twn politwn. Kai pisteyoyme oti qa prepei na yperballoyn ton eayto toys, wste to syntomotero dynato na feroyn se peras to ergo poy toys exei anateqei.

MIXAHL: Kat arxhn, qewreite oti politikes eyqynes exei h kybernhsh gia thn politikh poy askhse, prin ton Aprilio kai sth synexeia, sto xwro ths Naytilias;

REPPAS: H kybernhsh mas stis ekloges chfisthke me ena programma. Sas parapempw sto tmhma toy programmatos poy anaferetai sta qemata Emporikhs Naytilias. Se synepeia kai synexeia aytwn twn proeklogikwn ejaggeliwn h hgesia toy ypoyrgeioy Emporikhs Naytilias anelabe prwtoboylies. Metajy twn allwn, sygkrothqhkan oi epitropes poy asxoloyntai me sygkekrimena qemata, prokeimenoy -afoy ginei h proergasia kai ``wrimasei'' to qema- sth synexeia na syzhthsei to Y.S. kai na labei apofaseis. Eimaste mprosta se mia tragikh symptwsh, epanalambanw. H proqesmia, poy eixe teqei apo thn arxh, htan to telos Septembrioy. Oi ekqeseis twn epitropwn katatiqentai aytes tis hmeres. To qema ayto eprokeito na syzhthqei, sas diabebaiwnw, meta apo 15-20 hmeres. Qa syzhthqei sthn epomenh synedriash toy Ypoyrgikoy Symboylioy.

MIXAHL: H politikh poy askhsate sto xwro ths naytilias, mexri tis ekloges toy Aprilioy, htan h swsth;

REPPAS: Mesolabhsan oi ekloges toy Aprilioy kai kriqhkame gia thn politikh mas.

MIXAHL: Para to gegonos oti o laos sas janachfise, den ferete eyqynh gia otidhpote askhsate sto parelqon;

REPPAS: Me ayth thn ennoia, epeidh kai eseis eiste ergazomenos kapoy, h dikh sas asynepeia, an yparxei, to diko sas laqos an prokycei, synepiferei aytomatws eyqynh sthn koryfh ths epixeirhshs sthn opoia ergazeste; Einai mia poly eykolh proseggish, qa moy epitrecete na pw, h opoia den einai antistoixh me th shmasia toy qematos poy mas apasxolei. Qewreite, loipon, oti, xwris na gnwrizoyme pws akribws eginan ta pragmata kai poioi eyqynontai, an kapoios ergazomenos sto Dhmosio ypopesei se ena paraptwma, aytomata yparxei problhma eyqynhs toy politikoy proistamenoy. Poly perissotero, an o ergazomenos aytos einai apasxoloymenos sto idiwtiko tomea kai den eimaste bebaioi oti yparxei eyqynh, gia th dhmioyrgia aytoy toy tragikoy symbantos, h opoia na anagetai se paralhceis h ameleies politikwn paragontwn, h politikh eyqynh pws einai dynato na katalogistei me ayto ton eykolo tropo;

MIXAHL: Dhladh, oles oi ejagores kai oi sygxwneyseis sto xwro ths aktoploias poy eginan olo to prohgoymeno diasthma, htan acoges; Kai oxi acoges mono apo texnonomikhs pleyras, ennow politika. Giati, gia paradeigma, epitrecate na ginoyn oligopwlia; Einai h den einai ayto eyqynh ths kybernhtikhs politikhs; Kai malista, me ena forea, o opoios stis epitropes poy epikalesthkate gia na etoimasoyn thn proergasia gia tis apofaseis poy qa parete, ejefrase tis antirrhseis toy gia tis proqeseis tis opoies eseis ejaggeilate kai qelete na labete ws apofaseis.

REPPAS: Ayto enisxyei tis dikes mas apoceis. Gnwrizete oti sthn eleyqerh agora yparxoyn kanones. Den einai asydoth h agora. Opoiosdhpote epixeirhmatias-antagwnisths h allos, qewrei oti blaptontai ta symferonta toy exei endika mesa sth diaqesh toy, ta opoia mporei na xrhsimopoihsei. Twra, me aformh ena tragiko gegonos, to na syzhtoyme, prospaqwntas na anazhthsoyme ti einai ayto poy egine sthn ellhnikh aktoploia synolika, pisteyw oti den einai tipota allo, para mia apofygh na doyme sth mikroklimaka, giati peri aytoy prokeitai, to qema. Apo ekei kai pera, to eyrytero qema qa apotelesei antikeimeno syzhthshs sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio. Eseis o idios eipate oti ayta ta opoia exei ejaggeilei to YEN, exoyn dhmioyrghsei enoxlhsh se epixeirhmaties, oi opoioi@

MIXAHL: Toys epitrecate na ginoyn megaloi kai tranoi@

REPPAS: @den qa hqelan oi Epitropes aytes na katalhjoyn se porismata ta opoia, isws, einai antiqeta pros ta stenws ennooymena symferonta toys. Ayto deixnei me ton kalytero tropo oti h Politeia antimetwpizei ayta ta qemata me endiaferon kai pairnei apofaseis me gnwmona to dhmosio symferon, thn asfaleia twn politwn kai oxi ta symferonta idiwtwn epixeirhmatiwn.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Mia dieykrinish: An katalaba kala, sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio poy qa ginei thn erxomenh ebdomada, qa anakoinwsete thn arsh toy prostateytismoy; H kybernhsh meleta ayto to endexomeno sobara;

REPPAS: Sas exw pei oti o Prwqypoyrgos, me dhmosia dhlwsh toy, exei milhsei gia to qema ayto. Kai gnwrizete poly kala oti, symfwna me thn koinotikh nomoqesia, h Ellada exei th dynatothta na diathrhsei ayto to kaqestws, mexri to telos toy 2003. O Prwqypoyrgos, otan ekane dhmosies dhlwseis gia to qema ayto, den anaferotan bebaiws sto 2003. Den qa prokatalabw apofaseis toy Ypoyrgikoy Symboylioy. Ayto to opoio, omws, mporw na pw einai oti h qesh ayth paramenei ws exei kai qa tyxei efarmoghs, asfalws, poly prin ejantlhsoyme ta xronika oria poy mas epitrepetai na diathrhsoyme to kaqestws toy prostateytismoy.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Qa hqela na sas rwthsw, ti exei ginei me to qema twn elikopterwn. Yparxei mia -kata th gnwmh moy- dienejh, metajy toy ypoyrgeioy Emporikhs Naytilias kai toy ypoyrgeioy Eqnikhs Amynas. Mporeite na mas peite ti exei ginei me to qema ayto kai giati den petajan ta elikoptera;

REPPAS: Prwta apo ola, otan tiqetai to erwthma gia ta elikoptera, me yioqethsh ths qeshs oti den xrhsimopoihqhkan -den petajan, opws eipate, ta elikoptera -dinetai h entypwsh oti den eixame sth diaqesh mas, gia skopoys ereynas kai diaswshs, enaeria mesa. Eixame enaeria mesa sth diaqesh mas. Xrhsimopoihqhkan enaeria mesa. Ara, einai ceydhs h entypwsh poy dhmioyrgeitai oti, epeidh den xrhsimopoihqhkan ta elikoptera sygkekrimenoy typoy gia logoys toys opoioys qa anaferw eyqys amesws, den xrhsimopoihqhkan genikws elikoptera. Xrhsimopoihqhkan, loipon, enaeria mesa. Kai C-130 xrhsimopoihqhkan kai elikoptera typoy AB-205 xrhsimopoihqhkan kai bebaiws elikoptera typoy Chinook, ta opoia diaqetei o stratos jhras xrhsimopoihqhkan. Epishs, xrhsimopoihqhkan enaeria mesa, ta Super Puma, me Gallo piloto, gia ta opoia egine megalh syzhthsh. Den xrhsimopoihqhkan gia ereyna kai diaswsh, th nyxta, epeidh akribws den exei oloklhrwqei to ekpaideytiko programma toy plhrwmatos poy qa xeiristei ayta ta mesa.

PAPPA: Poso kairo pairnei ayto;

REPPAS: Qetete, loipon, ena allo qema twra. Alla, ayto den exei kamia sxesh me ayto poy onomazete eseis ``dienejh metajy dyo ypoyrgeiwn''. Eixe ekdwsei anakoinwsh apo thn prwth stigmh to YPEQA kai anaferetai se ayto. Sthn anakoinwsh toy milaei gia ola ta mesa poy diateqhkan, milaei kai gia ta enaeria mesa kai anaferetai kai sta Super Puma, analyontas toys logoys gia toys opoioys den htan dynato na epixeirhsoyn nyxterines wres. Giati, thn hmera xrhsimopoihqhkan.

PAPPA: Th nyxta xreiazontan.

REPPAS: Th nyxta xrhsimopoihqhkan alla enaeria mesa.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Dyo C-130 phgan.

REPPAS: Sas parapempw sthn anakoinwsh poy exei ekdwsei to ypoyrgeio Eqnikhs Amynas. An den eixame promhqeytei ayto ton typo twn elikopterwn, den qa ginotan opoiadhpote syzhthsh twra. Ta exoyme promhqeytei gia na mporoyn na epixeirhsoyn kai nyxta, na kanoyn ereyna kai diaswsh. Prepei na oloklhrwqei ena programma ekpaideyshs toy proswpikoy. Den exei oloklhrwqei.

PAPPA: Poso diarkei ayto;

REPPAS: Arketoys mhnes.

PAPPA: Giati, mas eipe xqes o k. Xythrhs, gia paradeigma, oti apo perysi to Dekembrio@

REPPAS: Sas eipa arketoys mhnes. An qetete ena qema leitoyrgias yphresiwn, na to kanete, alla mhn to qetete ypo ayto to prisma.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Epeidh tiqetai qema gia to an leitoyrghse h kratikh mhxanh, gi` ayto ginetai olh ayth h koybenta. H aporia poy yparxei einai, pws phrame emeis ola ayta ta elikoptera, prin exoyme toys katallhloys pilotoys. Giati eipate oti an den eixame promhqeytei aytoy toy typoy ta elikoptera, den qa ginotan opoiadhpote syzhthsh.

REPPAS: Ma, pws na exeis toys pilotoys gia kapoia elikoptera, xwris na exeis ta elikoptera ayta gia na ekpaideyseis toys pilotoys;

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Apo tis gnwseis poy exw egw, prwta ekpaideyontai oi pilotoi kai meta erxontai ta elikoptera.

REPPAS: Ayta ginontai parallhla. Exei ejoplistei h xwra mas me thn promhqeia aytwn twn elikopterwn kai bebaiws, ayta syntoma qa mporei na xrhsimopoioyntai kai katw apo tetoies dyskoles synqhkes gia ereyna kai diaswsh. Eyxomaste na mh xreiastei.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Kai gia th dienejh poy eipate@

REPPAS: Eseis to eipate, den to eipa egw.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Pantws, to qema einai, k. Ypoyrge -kai bghke kai ston Typo- oti ta elikoptera ayta ta krathse o ypoyrgos gia na paei o idios kai kapoioi ajiwmatikoi sthn Paro.

REPPAS: Se ayto to epipedo, den mporw na syzhthsw. Se mia allh syzhthsh, qa mporoysa na to sxoliasw. Twra, den qa to sxoliasw.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Oloi ta egracan, ta diabasame.

REPPAS: Einai apisteyta ola ayta.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Oloi ta diabasame.

REPPAS: Kai ti shmainei ayto;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Den jerete ti egine; To prwto poy petaje, phge me ton ypoyrgo ekei.

REPPAS: O ypoyrgos Emporikhs Naytilias kai o arxhgos toy Limenikoy htan sto qalamo twn epixeirhsewn olo to brady. Poy eprepe na einai; Ekei eprepe na einai, gia na syntonisoyn tis prospaqeies. Ekei htan h qesh toys. Den eixan logo na xrhsimopoihsoyn kanena meso. Kai an hqelan na metakinhqoyn, den eixan anagkh to Super Puma, to opoio dhqen den mporoyse na xrhsimopoihqei.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Giati den to xrhsimopoihsan;

REPPAS: Giati, pia, phgan hmera. Ta eipame ayta, den me parakoloyqeite. Mh nomizete oti prospaqoyme na aposeisoyme eyqynes. Emeis qeloyme na ginoyn oi ereynes kai na apodoqoyn oi eyqynes. Antilambanomaste pws gia logoys politikoys kai epikoinwniakoys -ayth einai h alhqeia- dhmioyrgeitai ena problhma epiprosqetws. Ayto, omws, den einai arketo gia na mas odhghsei sto symperasma oti prepei na proboyme se energeies, oi opoies -qa moy epitrecete na pw- den einai antistoixes apo apoch ypeyqynothtas, me thn ypeyqynothta poy prepei na deijoyme, enocei enos poly krisimoy qematos.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Pantws, oles aytes tis plhrofories den tis ebgalan oi dhmosiografoi. To ypoyrgeio Eqnikhs Amynas eixe pei oti ta elikoptera htan etoima apo poly nwris kai den petoysan giati perimenan ton ypoyrgo. Mhn ta rixnete stoys dhmosiografoys. Ta anypostata kai ta aneyqyna, den grafthkan apo toys dhmosiografoys.

REPPAS: Den eperrica eyqynes stoys dhmosiografoys, alla oydepote to YPEQA eipe ayto poy isxyrizeste. Eipa oti yparxei sygkekrimenh anakoinwsh toy YPEQA. Yparxei; Anaferetai se ayto to qema; Anaferetai. Ayth h anakoinwsh dhmosieyqhke kapoy oloklhrh, ws exei; Mporeite na moy peite se poio Meso dhmosieyqhke h anakoinwsh ayth; Den dhmosieyqhke. Polles arades dhmosieyqhkan me sxolia dhmosiografwn, swsta. H anakoinwsh ayth, h opoia periexei stoixeia, dhmosieyqhke kapoy; Mporeite na moy peite;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Dhmosieyqhkan sto ``BHMA'' oi dhlwseis twn pilotwn poy perimenan.

REPPAS: Gi` ayto sas lew. Mia epishmh anakoinwsh apo mia yphresia kratikh, poy anaferetai se ena qema kai paraqetei ta stoixeia, den dhmosieyqhke. Yparxoyn martyries. Bebaiws, yparxoyn martyries.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Gia mena, pio sobarh einai twn pilotwn.

REPPAS: Ayth einai h apoch sas.

MPOTWNHS: O k. Lianhs eipe, xqes, oti an den yparxoyn politikes eyqynes, prepei na anazhthqoyn. Kai o k. Papantwnioy, sth diarkeia toy Ypoyrgikoy Symboylioy, eipe oti oi eyqynes qa apodoqoyn opoy aytes yparxoyn kai prepei. Den apekleise tis politikes eyqynes. Ejefrase tetoia apoch mesa sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio;

REPPAS: Den hmoyn parwn, xqes, sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio, gi` ayto den hmastan kai xqes mazi edw, epeidh syzhtoysame to nomosxedio gia to ESR poy exw kataqesei. Diatypwnontai polles apoceis. Bebaiws, opoios apodeixqei oti exei eyqynh, qa prepei na toy apodoqei.

KARELIAS: Peran ths piqanhs arshs toy prostateytismoy, apasxolei thn kybernhsh to endexomeno na meiwsei to orio ths hlikias twn ploiwn apo ta 35 xronia poy einai shmera;

REPPAS: Prepei na eimai safhs. Prwton, anaferqhka, milwntas gia thn arsh toy prostateytismoy, se dhmosies dhlwseis toy Prwqypoyrgoy kai eipa oti oi dhlwseis aytes desmeyoyn ton Prwqypoyrgo kai thn kybernhsh. Den eipa oti aytes oi apofaseis qa lhfqoyn meqayrio. Mhn yparjei ayth h paranohsh. Den to apokleiw. Den einai kati, omws, to opoio mporoyme na prokatalaboyme. Ayto prepei na einai safes.

Deyteron, ola ta qemata poy aforoyn thn aktoploia qa antimetwpistoyn kai qa lhfqoyn apofaseis epi twn qematwn ekeinwn poy krinoyme oti eimaste etoimoi na paroyme orqes apofaseis. Kai epi toy sygkekrimenoy qematos to opoio qa syzhthqei. Den mporw, ayth thn wra, na prokatalabw tis apofaseis toy Ypoyrgikoy Symboylioy. Sas lew, omws, oti to qema poy qetete, mas apasxolei.

I. KAMPOYRAKHS: Eipate oti parallhla me thn taktikh ereyna twn dikastikwn arxwn, o idios o k. Papoytshs, apo thn prwth stigmh, exei diatajei kai ereyna poy qa ginei parallhla, opws eipate sthn arxh. Apo poioys qa dienerghqei ayth h ereyna;

REPPAS: Kai apo dikastikoys.

I. KAMPOYRAKHS: Kai apo poioys alloys;

REPPAS: Opws plhroforoymai, o eisaggeleas toy Areioy Pagoy k. Dhmopoylos qa episkefqei ton Prwqypoyrgo. Isws ayth thn wra na synergazontai, me antikeimeno akribws pws, sto plaisio toy yfistamenoy systhmatos, qa oloklhrwqei to syntomotero dynato ayth h ereyna gia to qlibero peristatiko kai alla synafh qemata.

KOYRTAKHS: Polla legontai kai grafontai gia ton prwhn YEN k. Soymakh. Skefqhkate sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio an qa yparjei kapoia synanthsh toy Prwqypoyrgoy me ton k. Soymakh;

REPPAS: Gia ta qemata ayta den askei armodiothtes o k. Soymakhs. Gia ola ta alla qemata, apanthsa prin se sxetikh erwthsh toy k. Mixahl. Nomizw oti o k. Soymakhs, opws edeije kai o peiraikos laos, poy ton anedeije kai pali boyleyth, htan petyxhmenos ypoyrgos.

ANTYPAS: Eipate prohgoymenws, oti yparxei eyaisqhsia kai apodeiknyetai apo ta kybernhtika stelexh otan ayta prospaqoyn na diorqwsoyn ta kakws keimena. Apanthsate kai gia ton k. Soymakh an yparxoyn prohgoymenes politikes eyqynes. Yparxei, omws, profanws kati allo to opoio dhmioyrgei problhmata. Qa elegxqoyn, loipon, dhmosioi ypallhloi h opoioidhpote alloi gia oligwria h diafqora;

REPPAS: Xwris prokatalhch, xwris prokataskeyes, xwris emeis, ek twn proterwn, na prosdiorisoyme poioi einai aytoi poy einai ypeyqynoi. Ayto, se ena dhmokratiko politeyma, einai anepitrepto. Giati, bebaiws, mporei na ikanopoiei kapoioys h eykolh kataggelia kai h apodosh eyqynhs, den exei omws kamia sxesh ayth h aytarxikh symperifora me toys kanones oi opoioi prepei na epikratoyn sto dikonomiko systhma, to opoio isxyei sth xwra mas kai se oles, bebaiws, tis dhmokratikes xwres.

ANTYPAS: Yparxei kapoio ``aorato xeri'' poy ftaiei gia ola ayta;.

REPPAS: ``Aorato xeri'' den prokeitai na katadikastei, giati den einai kati to opoio mporei na syllhfqei, oyte einai kati enantion toy opoioy mporei na apaggelqei kathgoria. Den ejaireitai kaneis. Oloi oi alloi leitoyrgoi oi opoioi emplekontai, to eipa sthn arxh, asfalws qa elegxqoyn, sto plaisio mias ereynas poy qeloyme na paei se baqos, na einai oysiastikh kai na dwsei apotelesmata.

ANTYPAS: Mporeite na mas anaferete ena prohgoymeno paradeigma, poioi dhmosioi leitoyrgoi timwrhqhkan;

REPPAS: Den qa analabw na ekproswphsw allon, peran ths kybernhshs. An kaleitai h kybernhsh na katalysei thn aytonomia ths dikaiosynhs, qa moy epitrecete na diafwnhsw kai na pw, oti oyte eseis, oyte allos poliths qa prepei na ekfrazei tetoies idees.

ANTYPAS: Den exei sxesh me dikaiosynh, einai eswterikh diadikasia.

REPPAS: Den einai etsi. Exoyn epilhfqei ta organa ths dikaiosynhs. Kai gnwrizete poly kala oti se polles periptwseis -einai mia alhqeia ayth- yparxei kaqysterhsh sthn ekdosh apofashs. Eipa, kat` epanalhch, oti einai ena qema poy mas apasxolei. Eseis exete akoysei, polles fores, thn kybernhsh kai ton Prwqypoyrgo ton idio na milane gia to qema ayto.

ANTYPAS: Den yparxoyn peiqarxika symboylia se oles tis yphresies;

REPPAS: Peiqarxika symboylia yparxoyn se oles tis yphresies, ta opoia exoyn tetoies armodiothtes.

ANTYPAS: Oi apofaseis, yparxoyn;

REPPAS: Bebaiws. Gnwrizete poly kala oti gia polloys logoys oi apofaseis poy ekdidoyn ta peiqarxika symboylia den einai pantote aytes, tis opoies qa anamenate eseis h kapoios allos. Den mporeis, omws, na epiballeis oyte sto peiqarxiko symboylio thn apofash poy qa ekdwsei, dioti payei na einai symboylio.

ANTYPAS: Epitrecte moy, omws, na kanw ena sxolio, oti ``kai oi elegxontes prepei na elegxontai''.

REPPAS: Symfwnoyme apolyta. Emeis elegxomaste sth Boylh, kata th diadikasia toy koinoboyleytikoy elegxoy. Oi ergazomenoi, bebaiws exoyn ta peiqarxika symboylia stis yphresies toys poy toys elegxoyn. Ta apotelesmata ta gnwrizete. An logoi synadelfikhs allhleggyhs h alloi logoi odhgoyn polles fores sthn ekdosh apallaktikwn apofasewn, enw den qa eprepe, einai qema ayto ths kybernhshs;

ANTYPAS: Qa prepei na apodeijoyn thn antikeimenikothta.

REPPAS: Qa prepei, loipon, ta peiqarxika symboylia na ta elegxei h kybernhsh kai na epiballei tis apofaseis poy ekeinh qelei gia kaqe peristatiko sta peiqarxika symboylia; Den mporei na ginei ayto kai den qeloyme na ginei. Einai safes ayto.

ANTYPAS: Qa prepei na apodeijoyn thn antikeimenikothta toys.

REPPAS: Symfwnoyme apolytws na einai antikeimenika.

PITTARAS: Apo th stigmh poy to ellhniko plhrwma den htan se qesh na epixeirhsei, qelw na moy peite an h ellhnikh kybernhsh zhthse th syndromh twn Gallwn ekpaideytwn.

REPPAS: Sas eipa oti ston topo ths tragwdias yphrxan enaeria mesa. To SUPER PUMA petaje me Gallo piloto, alla den eixe ajiologhqei, wste na exoyn ejasfalistei ola ta stoixeia kai na einai se epixeirhsiakh etoimothta. An xrhsimopoieito gia enan tetoio skopo kai o mh genoito eixame mia tragikh ejelijh, tote qa miloysame -kai eseis isws qa askoysate kritikh- gia alloy eidoys eyqynes. Giati xrhsimopoihqhkan, enw den eixe kriqei epixeirhsiaka etoimo; Ola ayta exoyn analyqei, den yparxei logos na ta syzhtoyme allo. Exoyme na antimetwpisoyme mia tragikh pragmatikothta kai ayto einai poy proexei.

MOYRTZHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, eipate prohgoymenws oti h apaithsh anqrwpoqysiwn den exei sxesh me to koinoboyleytiko mas systhma. Se orismena krath, otan symbainoyn tetoia gegonota, oi ypoyrgoi ``kanoyn xarakiri'' h orismenoi poy exoyn oi idioi thn eyqynh paraitoyntai, dedomenoy malista, opws eipate prohgoymenws oti o elegxos qa einai pros pasa kateyqynsh kai o elegxos endexomenws na apodeijei plhmmeleis prajeis h egklhmatikes energeies yphresiwn toy ypoyrgeioy Emporikhs Naytilias. To erwthma moy einai giati anagoreyetai sygkekrimeno proswpo se ``Ifigeneia''; Ayto den to katalabainw.

REPPAS: Prwta ap` ola, den yparxei kanenas logos na protrexoyme. An apodeixqei oti yparxoyn aytes oi eyqynes logw ameleias yphresiwn h allwn paraleicewn, oi eyqynes aytes qa apodoqoyn. Alla ayto den mporoyme na to kanoyme twra, prin oloklhrwqei h ereyna. Deyteron, qa prepei na ejetazoyme kaqe peristatiko -kai den einai ola omoia- gia na ajiologoyme apo ekei kai pera to baqmo emplokhs poy exei o paragontas, o opoios krinetai sthn politikh konistra, me to ekastote peristatiko. Einai dynato, se ena dhmosio meso metaforas, se ena lewforeio, fer eipein, o odhgos na kanei kati to opoio qa dhmioyrghsei polynekro atyxhma kai aytomatws o Ypoyrgos Metaforwn poy epopteyei ayton ton tomea, na krinetai ws politika ypeyqynos; Ola ta qemata, pisteyw oti qa prepei na ta krinoyme stis swstes diastaseis toys. Oxi genikws kai aoristws, epeidh synebh h tragwdia, epeidh exoyme nekroys, aytomatws qeloyme kai ayth th synepeia. Den syndeontai aytomatws, den einai apolytws taytoshma ola ayta. Sas eipa oti h ereyna brisketai se ejelijh kai den prepei na protrejoyme. Na doyme, omws, to sygkekrimeno peristatiko: O Xrhstos o Papoytshs, o Ypoyrgos Emporikhs Naytilias, se anypopto xrono, eyqys ws anelabe kaqhkonta, eixe ejaggeilei prwtoboylia prokeimenoy na ejetasqoyn ola ta qemata poy aforoyn thn eswterikh kai thn pontoporo naytilia, wste na paroyme apofaseis. Kai pairnoyme apofaseis eji mhnes meta tis ekloges. Den edeije, loipon, mia taxythta kai mia synepeia na qesei se efarmogh politikes poy ejaggeilame proeklogika; Den anelabe prwtoboylia; Anelabe prwtoboylia kai qa eishghqei sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio, sthn epomenh synedriash toy.

ALEIFEROPOYLOS: Apodwsate th gigantwsh twn etaireiwn poy drasthriopoioyntai sto xwro ths aktoploias, stoys nomoys ths eleyqerhs agoras. Wstoso, den gnwrizw kanena nomo ths eleyqerhs agoras h toy eleyqeroy antagwnismoy na leei oti mia kybernhsh@

REPPAS: Eipa oti h eleyqerh agora leitoyrgei me kanones, den einai asydoth.

ALEIFEROPOYLOS: Entajei, stoys kanones ths eleyqerhs agoras. Wstoso, kanenas kanonas den leei oti mia kybernhsh einai ypoxrewmenh na apotaqei sthn Commission kai na zhthsei thn hlikiakh paratash gia ta ploia toy monopwlioy. Ayto den synista mia eyqynh politikh;

REPPAS: Den zhtaei h kybernhsh mas kati tetoio, gia ton aploystato logo oti sthn Eyrwpaikh Enwsh den problepetai kapoio orio hlikias gia th dromologhsh ploiwn. Mono emeis exoyme balei kapoio orio. Problepetai o elegxos twn ploiwn apo thn apoch ths katallhlothtas poy exoyn h den exoyn, prokeimenoy na dromologoyntai. Den tiqetai qema hlikias twn ploiwn.

ALEJAKH: Mas eipate oti den mporoyme na apodidoyme eykoles kathgories, toylaxiston otan den gnwrizoyme pws eginan ayta ta pragmata kai poios akribws eyqynetai. Epeidh, omws, apo thn arxh ayths ths istorias yparxei mia tash na kateyqynqoyn oi ereynes pros to anqrwpino laqos, pros thn anqrwpinh ekdoxh, sto plhrwma -kai exoyme kai dikes sas dhlwseis, alla kai allwn oi dhlwseis pros ta ekei kateyqynontai- anarwtiemai an h kybernhsh ejetazei to endexomeno na to exei boyliajei to ploio h etaireia. Yparxei tetoio endexomeno poy na ejetazei h kybernhsh;

REPPAS: Epanalambanw oti kai aytos o opoios elegxetai, epeidh mporei na exei eyqynes, ajizei thn prostasia ths Dikaiosynhs. Den qa prepei, epeidh dhmioyrgeitai ayth h entypwsh, na ton katadikasoyme me apofash poy qa paroyme xwris na exei oloklhrwqei mia diadikasia, h opoia qa odhghsei se ena ajiopisto porisma. Ayto einai to prwto. Deyteron, oydeis mporei na to pei ayto kai malista se mia dhmosia syzhthsh, an den prokyptei apo kapoia stoixeia. Alla pisteyw oti kai ayth h parametros apotelei antikeimeno ths ereynas. Nomizw oti einai kati to opoio qa ejetasoyn oi armodies yphresies. Qelete thn apolytws proswpikh moy apoch; Moy einai adianohto na skefqw oti kapoios anqrwpos mporei na kanei hqelhmena mia tetoia egklhmatikh prajh. Moy einai adianohto. Den mporw na skefqw kati tetoio ejomologoymai. Mexri twra, h syzhthsh kai h kritikh exei anaptyxqei ston tomea ths antidrash twn yphresiwn, oson afora thn ereyna kai th diaswsh. Oson afora thn proklhsh ths tragwdias den exei diatypwqei kapoia ajiopisth kathgoria, kapoia dhmosia martyria gia to oti to ploio den htan ajioploo, kai ara eixe problhma apo prin kai ayto to proyparxon problhma odhghse sth tragwdia. Asfalws, kai ayto qa apotelesei antikeimeno ereynas. Qelw na pw, loipon, oti h syzhthsh epikentrwnetai sto ti egine meta, an egine egkairws kai an egine me orqo tropo to ergo ths diaswshs kai ths ereynas. Apo kei kai pera bebaiws, epanalambanw, ola ayta ta stoixeia -ta prin, ta kata kai ta meta to tragiko symban- prepei na ta doyme.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Lete oti den bghke kanenas na pei oti to ploio den htan ajioploo. Den bghkan oi syndikalistes, den bghkan anqrwpoi poy ergazontai mesa kai eipan oti einai sapiokarabo;

REPPAS: Apanthsa se ayto apo thn prwth hmera kai pairnw thn eyqynh ths apanthshs.

STAMATOPOYLOS: @kai apodeixqhke oti htan sapiokarabo.

REPPAS: Eidate, loipon, poso eykola bgazete porismata, eseis; An me thn eykolia poy milate kai katadikazete grafete sthn efhmerida sas, k. Stamatopoyle, antilambaneste@ Sas parakalw poly. Giati exoyme fqasei pia se ena shmeio poy nomizw oti den qa mporoyme na epikoinwnhsoyme.

KAMPOYRGIANNH: Se prohgoymenh erwthsh peri politikwn eyqynwn eipate oti opoy diapistwqoyn eyqynes qa apodoqoyn. Ayto shmainei oti to qema twn politikwn eyqynwn einai anoikto gia thn kybernhsh Giati ek prwths h entypwsh htan oti aporriptete tis aitiaseis peri politikwn eyqynwn.

REPPAS: Poios ereyna tis politikes eyqynes; Den eipa oti h kybernhsh elegxetai, sto plaisio toy koinoboyleytikoy elegxoy, apo th Boylh; Yparxoyn apanthseis gia ola ta qemata, poy mporei na qesei h antipoliteysh h opoios allos. Aytes tis apanthseis tis dinei h kybernhsh, tis dinei o armodios ypoyrgos. Kata ta alla, pragmatika, ayto einai ena tragiko gegonos. Katalabainw oti qa htan mia ikanopoihsh gia polloys, idiws gi aytoys poy eplhghsan apo ayth th symfora, to na doyne grhgora oti oloklhrwnontai oi ereynes, na maqoyn poioi einai ypeyqynoi kai na diapistwsoyn oti oi ypeyqynoi timwroyntai aysthra. Einai kati, omws, poy den mporei na to kanei kaneis twra, dyo hmeres meta, oyte h kybernhsh. Prepei na ginei h diadikasia, poy oloi exoyme apodexqei, gia na synyparxoyme se ayth thn koinwnia kai tote ola nomizw qa erqoyn sto fws.

I. XASAPOPOYLOS: Meleta h kybernhsh, epeidh ginetai logos shmera, th dhmioyrgia ypoyrgeioy Olympiadas;

REPPAS: Apanthsame, kat` epanalhch, arnhtika se omoia erwthmata kai paramenoyme sth qesh mas.

Sas eyxaristw.

Kalo Sabbatokyriako.

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