Greek Government Press Briefing, 07-11-20

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

Tmhma Dhmosiografikwn Kalycewn

Trith, 20 Noembrioy 2007

Ariqmos Deltioy: 106746193

Ekdosh 1

BRF201107

YPOYRGOS EPIKRATEIAS

Aqhna, 20 Noembrioy 2007

Xairete.

Oloklhrwqhke, prin apo ligo, h synedriash ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs, opoy syzhthqhkan diafora qemata toy Ypoyrgeioy Eswterikwn, metajy allwn fysika kai to qema toy eklogikoy nomoy. O k. Paylopoylos exei hdh kanei dhlwseis, ejerxomenos toy Megaroy Majimoy. Epishs, qa hqela na sas pw oti, me apofash ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs, epekteinetai kai gia toys plhgentes apo tis prosfates plhmmyres to metro poy eixe lhfqei to kalokairi gia toys plhgentes apo tis pyrkagies, dhladh h apozhmiwsh twn 3.000 eyrw. Apozhmiwsh pollaplasia toy problepomenoy apo to nomo. O sxetikos nomos problepei peripoy 600 eyrw, etsi wste h Politeia na antimetwpisei me isotimia oloys toys polites, opws ofeilei na kanei kai oi plhgentes, apo tis prosfates plhmmyres, na antimetwpisoyn me thn arwgh ths Politeias ta prwta problhmata poy emfanisthkan jafnika sth zwh toys. Afora plhgentes sthn Kabala kai thn Arkadia. Ginetai epejergasia twn sxetikwn stoixeiwn apo ton yfypoyrgo Ygeias k. Kwnstantopoylo, se synergasia me to ypoyrgeio Eswterikwn, nomarxes kai dhmarxoys.

Parakalw tis erwthseis sas.

SPYRAKH: Mia dieykrinistikh, ean exete thn kalosynh. Qa einai sto protypo twn pyroplhktwn; Dhladh, na kataballetai xwris alla dikaiologhtika h apozhmiwsh ayth;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qa kataballetai me th diadikasia ayth poy exei akoloyqhqei kai me toys pyroplhktoys. Einai gnwsto pia se oloys oti h diadikasia ayth apotelese kai mporei na apotelei protypo. Ta stoixeia ta opoia xreiazontai, qa sygkentrwnontai apo th Nomarxia h apo toys dhmarxoys. Den gnwrizw na sas pw ean qa ginei diamesoy twn trapezwn h me allo tropo. Fantazomai oti qa ginei diamesoy twn trapezwn. H apofash, pantws, poy exei lhfqei einai sth logikh ths apofashs poy elhfqh to kalokairi.

KAKALHS: Dhladh, sto trixiliaro ejantleitai kai pali h paroxh ths kybernhshs pros toys plhmmyropaqeis; Giati, apo o,ti blepw shmera, molis to 5% twn kamenwn se Arkadia kai Hleia exoyn ginei antiplhmmyrika erga, gia paradeigma. Ayta poy ofeilei na kanei h kybernhsh qa ejantlhqoyn kai pali se ena trixiliaro, qa einai to alloqi ths kybernhshs;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Xqes parakoloyqhsate thn paroysiash ths meleth poy ekponhqhke apo 160 ejeidikeymenoys episthmones. Gnwrizete mia seira apo stoixeia poy sas edwsa se ayth thn aiqoysa, opote nomizw oti to pososto poy xrhsimopoieite einai poly mikro. Qa sas dwsw orismena epipleon stoixeia, ta opoia exw antlhsei apo tis armodies Perifereies, th Genikh Grammateia Politikhs Prostasias kai ayth apo tis Perifereies. Gia paradeigma, sthn Peloponnhso exoyme kormodemata kai kormoplegmata 1.288 xiliometrwn, sth dytikh Ellada 1.108 xiliometrwn, th Qessalia 278,9 xiliometrwn, th Sterea Ellada 33,5 xiliometrwn, thn Attikh 1.868,929 xiliometrwn. Synolika, loipon, exoyme kormodemata kai kormoplegmata, poy einai to prwto antiplhmmyriko kai antidiabrwtiko ergo poy mporei na ginei se mia perioxh poy kahke, dasikh h kallierghmenh perioxh, se oreinoys ogkoys kyriws, 4.576 xiliometrwn. Milame gia mia apostash h opoia kalyptei gewgrafika -toylaxiston mia fora, mhn pw kai parapanw- thn apostash Aqhna-Agglia. Kai ayta eginan se ligotero apo dyo mhnes. Se o,ti afora ta kormofragmata, sthn Peloponnhso exoyme 55.448 tetragwnika metra, th dytikh Ellada 15.893 t.m., th Qessalia 433 temaxia, th Sterea Ellada 4.157 t.m., thn Attikh 5.559 t.m. Synolo tetragwnikwn metrwn se kormofragmata  eseis poy hsastan parwn xqes sth synenteyjh Typoy poy egine sth diplanh aiqoysa, eidate kai pws einai ayta ta kormofragmata stis fwtografies poy paroysiasthkan- 81.057 tetragwnika metra. Exei ginei mia seira apo erga ta opoia anaferqhkan sthn poreia aytwn twn peripoy dyo, dyomish mhnwn kai exoyn epanalhfqei kai apo emena, alla kai apo toys armodioys ypoyrgoys.

Se o,ti afora ta stoixeia poy exw antlhsei apo to YPEXWDE: Exoyn hdh oloklhrwqei ta erga ston Taygeto, th Messhnia, proypologismoy 900.000 eyrw kai sthn perioxh ths Arxaias Olympias, sthn Hleia, proypologismoy 2,5 ekat. eyrw. Exoyn oloklhrwqei se pososto 95% ta erga sthn perioxh toy Pyrgoy toy nomoy Hleias proypologismoy 950.000 eyrw. Exoyn oloklhrwqei se pososto 90% ta erga sto nomo Lakwnias proypologismoy 1.250.000 eyrw kai ta erga sthn perioxh twn Derbenoxwriwn proypologismoy 150.000 eyrw. Exoyn oloklhrwqei se pososto 85% ta erga sto nomo Arkadias proypologismoy 1,2 ekatommyriwn eyrw. Exoyn oloklhrwqei se pososto 80% ta erga stis perioxes Zaxarw, Krestaina kai Fygaleia toy nomoy Hleias proypologismoy 4 ekatommyriwn eyrw. Exoyn oloklhrwqei se pososto 75% ta erga sto nomo Eyboias proypologismoy 400.000 eyrw. O synolikos proypologismos twn ergwn poy proanaferqhkan einai 11.350.000 eyrw. Epishs, se diadikasia egkrishs brisketai meleth gia thn ektelesh antidiabrwtikwn ergwn proypologismoy 900.000 eyrw sthn perioxh Oixalias toy nomoy Messhnias. Ta stoixeia ayta leptomerestata kai atrantaxta katadeiknyoyn to ergo to opoio exei ginei aytoys toys 2-2,5 mhnes meta tis katastrofikes pyrkagies toy Aygoystoy.

KAKALHS: H eikona poy mas paroysiazete einai oti exoyn qwrakistei oi perioxes poy kahkan me antiplhmmyrika erga se pososto 85%, an akoysa kala, stis perissoteres perioxes. Tote pws dikaiologeite tis terasties katastrofes poy ginane me dedomeno oti, opws mas lete, eginan ta antiplhmmyrika erga, enw oi gewlogoi lene oti molis to 5% twn kamenwn exoyn ginei;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Se oti afora to xarakthrismo peri terastiwn h oxi ayto as to afhsoyme na to poyn oi katagrafes kai oi apografes oi opoies ginontai stis perioxes. Sas qymizw kai pali apo th xqesinh syzhthsh, giati den eimai eidikos episthmwn alla antlhsa polla apo th xqesinh synenteyjh thn opoia edwsan o prytanhs kai oi kaqhghtes oti oi dynatothtes dihqhtikothtas, tis opoies exei h gh meta apo katastrofikes pyrkagies meiwnontai se para poly mikra pososta. H leitoyrgia loipon aytwn twn kormoplegmatwn kai kormofragmatwn bohqa etsi wste na staqeropoihqoyn ta xeimarrwdh pleon nera poy feygoyn apo tis plagies twn boynwn wste na mporesei to edafos na apokthsei megalyterh dihqhsimothta- an xrhsimopoiw swsta th lejh, an den th xrhsimopoiw sygxwrhste me- apo aythn thn opoia exei kanonika h gh meta apo tetoies katastrofikes pyrkagies.

GKOYTZANHS: Thn anoijh eixate parei metra gia tis pyrkagies kai kahke h mish Ellada. Twra ypotiqetai oti pairnate metra gia tis plhmmyres kai plhmmyrise h mish Ellada. Mhpws kati den phgainei kala me thn apotelesmatikothta twn metrwn poy pairnete;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Sas afhnw me ton kalo logo sto stoma. Den qa pw tipote.

GKOYTZANHS: Eseis mhpws problhmatizeste gia na allajete ta metra gia na prostateyete kalytera th xwra;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Nomizw oti h prajh kaqenos apodeiknyei an problhmatizetai. Giati, jerete, den arkei o problhmatismos. Oyte h kritikh arkei. Shmasia exei ti ginetai sthn prajh.

GKOYTZANHS: Emeis kritikh kanoyme... (den akoygetai)

ROYSOPOYLOS: Nai. Exw akoysei kritikes oti ta xrhmata ta opoia yposxeqhke h kybernhsh den qa dinontoysan pote. Kai doqhkan. Akoysa kritikes oti htan ena proeklogiko kolpo -poy eipwqhke apo polloys allwste  kai diapistwnete shmera oti den einai kaqoloy etsi, giati h Politeia apofasise na antimetwpisei isotimws oloys toys polites. Akoyw, loipon, polla. Oi Ellhnes polites omws einai parontes, einai apenanti apo tis thleoptikes oqones, einai apenanti apo tis efhmerides tis opoies diabazoyn, ta radiofwna poy akoyn kai thn kybernhtikh politikh. Kai antilambanontai perissotera apo osa nomizei kapoios, eite einai politikos eite einai dhmosiografos. O poliths, loipon, eite einai dhmosiografos eite oxi, diapistwnei sthn prajh an mia Politeia endiaferetai kai poso. Den einai qemata poy xrhsimopoioyntai ws diafhmish. Kai ayto me anagkazete na to pw meta thn teleytaia sas parathrhsh.

GKOYTZANHS: Kalo einai na ta diafhmizete, alla apantate se allh kritikh kai oxi se ayth poy sas metaferw egw. Giati, den sas eipe kaneis oti den exete thn proqesh. Leme oti ek toy apotelesmatos ta metra poy lambanete den einai eparkh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: H proseggish orismenwn qematwn de mporei na ginei me aploiko tropo. Kai den ypainissomai kati gia thn erwthsh sas, alla moy dinei aformh. Otan exoyme, opws eipa kai xqes, perioxes stis opoies h broxh poy epese antistoixei se ayth poy peftei toys misoys xeimerinoys mhnes, se oloklhrh thn Attikh, gia paradeigma, h oso einai se dyomisi-treis mhnes sthn idia perioxh, antilambanetai kapoios oti ta fainomena exoyn jefygei apo ayta poy gnwrizame palia ws meso oro fysikwn fainomenwn. Allwste kai eseis -kai oloi mas- ta grafete, ta diabazoyme, ta leme, dioti exoyn allajei oi klimatikes synqhkes. Aytes oi allages, loipon, xreiazontai diaforetiko tropo antimetwpishs. Panw ap` ola, xreiazetai diaforetikh nootropia. Oxi mono apo toys politikoys oi opoioi ofeiloyn na antapokriqoyn. Ap` oloys.

SPYRAKH: Kyrie Ekproswpe, dyo boyleytes sas, hdh, o k. Manwlhs kai o k. Ntinopoylos, dyo boyleytes ths pleiochfias, exoyn diatypwsei dhmosiws th diafwnia toys sto endexomeno periorismoy ths katwtaths syntajhs katw apo ta 600 eyrw sthn prajh. O enas ej aytwn malista, o k. Manwlhs, apeilei kai me paraithsh apo to boyleytiko ajiwma, se periptwsh poy proxwrhsoyn oi dromologoymenes allages gia to Asfalistiko. Qa hqela ena sxolio sas.

ROYSOPOYLOS: De qa sxoliasw dhlwseis boyleytwn. Ekeino to opoio qa hqela na pw mono einai oti sthn armodia Epitroph ths Boylhs exoyn doqei, mexri stigmhs, stoixeia apo ton armodio ypoyrgo h toys armodioys ypoyrgoys. Stoixeia ta opoia prepei na epejergastei kapoios me ypeyqynothta, me sobarothta, na perimenei na akoystei olo to sxedio ths kybernhshs gia thn allagh toy asfalistikoy systhmatos. To Asfalistiko einai ena poly shmantiko qema, to opoio exei na kanei me emas toys idioys kai me tis epomenes genies. De qigontai dikaiwmata ta opoia exoyn xarakthristei  opws exw pei kai allh fora- ws wrima dikaiwmata. H Politeia ofeilei -opws kaqe Politeia poy sebetai ton eayto ths- na frontisei wste oi polites ths na mh breqoyn kapoia stigmh jekremastoi, h ``epi jyloy kremamenoi''. Ayth einai h prospaqeia poy ginetai me to Asfalistiko. Kai ayth h prospaqeia anaptyssetai sthn armodia Epitroph ths Boylhs. Qa parakalesw oloys na perimenoyn na oloklhrwqei h paroysiash twn qesewn ths kybernhshs kai qa anoijei o dialogos, bebaiws, eyrytera kai sthn koinwnia, opws exei anoijei metajy twn syndikalistikwn forewn kai ths kybernhshs. Kai twn kommatwn kai ths kybernhshs, ennoeitai.

KAKALHS: Ektos apo ta stoixeia poy exei kataqesei sth Boylh o ypoyrgos yparxoyn kai ayta poy eipe xqes sthn ESHEA kai stoys alloys foreis, ap` opoy prokyptei safws h proqesh ths kybernhshs na proxwrhsei kai na qijei kai wrima, ayta poy xarakthrisate wrima dikaiwmata, alla kai na xrhsimopoihsei thn enopoihsh twn tameiwn gia na ayjhsei kai to orio hlikias kai na meiwsei tis syntajeis.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ta oria hlikias twn 65 kai 60 etwn antistoixws gia antres kai gynaikes de qigontai. Ayto to exoyme pei apo thn arxh kai paramenei to idio. Ayto poy exoyme pei epishs, kai malista exei eipwqei kai proeklogika apo ton idio ton Prwqypoyrgo  den eipwqhke meteklogika mono- einai oti ean kapoioi epiqymoyn na parateinoyn to xrono ths doyleias toys ews tria xronia, apo ta 65 sta 68 h apo ta 60 sta 63, aytoi qa exoyn aytomatws anabaqmismenh oikonomika syntajh. De qigetai omws to orio hlikias twn 60 kai 65 etwn. Ayto einai jekaqaro. Exei eipwqei, den allazei tipote.

ROYMELIWTHS: Ean yparjoyn antidraseis apo ta kommata ths antipoliteyshs sto sxedio ths gia to neo eklogiko nomo h yparjoyn pio endiaferoyses protaseis, einai etoimh h kybernhsh na mpei se mia syzhthsh akomh kai apo mhdenikh bash;

ROYSOPOYLOS: H kybernhsh einai etoimh na mpei se mia syzhthsh, h opoia qa anaferetai se olo to eklogiko systhma, alla kai sth dioikhtikh domh. Einai mia syzhthsh, h opoia mporei na ginei sto plaisio ths anaqewrhshs toy Syntagmatos, giati allwste, idees h protaseis poy exoyn akoystei aforoyn sigoyra arqra toy Syntagmatos, ta opoia einai pros anaqewrhsh. Mporei na ginei sthn armodia Epitroph ths Boylhs. Ekeino to opoio kanei shmera h kybernhsh einai: Ekplhrwnei th desmeysh thn opoia anelabe o Prwqypoyrgos kai h kybernhtikh pleiochfia sth diarkeia twn programmatikwn dhlwsewn prin apo dyo mhnes, oti dhladh xreiazomaste ena systhma to opoio xwris na qigei thn analogikothta dhmioyrgei proypoqeseis gia isxyroteres aytodynames kybernhseis. H kinhsh ayth, loipon, apofasisthke shmera sthn Kybernhtikh Epitroph. O armodios ypoyrgos exei kanei tis dhlwseis tis opoies anefera prohgoymenws. Den mas apokleiei kaneis kai tipote na syzhthsoyme qesmika gia to mellon olwn aytwn twn qematwn. Allwste, gnwrizete oti exei arxisei mia seira apo syzhthseis, opws gia paradeigma, o ``KAPODISTRIAS 2'' poy shmainei diaforetikh dioikhtikh diairesh apo ayth poy exoyme shmera. Ayta ta qemata, omws, ontas poly shmantika kai sobara qesmika qemata, ta opoia eyxhs ergon einai na exoyn th synainesh kai twn allwn kommatwn, einai qemata poy den ejantloyntai se enan h dyo mhnes.

SMYRNHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, epeidh apo tis plhrofories poy diarreoyn pros ton Typo, fainetai oti to mponoys, ston eklogiko nomo, twn 50 edrwn den phgainei gia synaspismoys kommatwn, pisteyete oti ayto synadei me th Dhmokratia na apotrepetai; Dhladh, sthn oysia, oi synaspismoi den einai kata kapoio tropo kai mia katastrathghsh ths laikhs entolhs; Ean kapoios chfisei, as poyme, enan synaspismo kommatwn, giati na mhn parei an bgei prwtos to mponoys twn 50 edrwn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den apotrepetai, an ta kommata kateboyn me eniaio chfodeltio, opws gnwrizete. Dhladh, an kateboyn ws mia kommatikh ontothta. An apofasisoyn dyo kommata na synergastoyn proeklogika kai na kateboyn me ena eniaio chfodeltio ws eniaio komma, kaneis den apotrepei tipote. Isa, isa to pairnoyn ayto to prim.

GKOYTZANHS: Giati ayjhsate to mponoys toy prwtoy kommatos stis 50 edres h stis 60 h stis 70 h stis 100 gia na eiste sigoyroi oti kaqe fora qa yparxei aytodynamh kybernhsh oti pososto kai an parei;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Opws sas eipa, ofeiloyme na thrhsoyme thn arxh ths analogikothtas, na yparxei dhladh ena pio analogiko systhma. Yparxei analogiko systhma. De diatarassetai ayth h arxh me tis allages oi opoies ginontai. An deite ta sygkekrimena stoixeia, qa diapistwsete oti an akoloyqoysame, gia paradeigma, ton eklogiko nomo o opoios isxyse epi seira etwn -kai ton opoio eklogiko nomo sas qymizw oti to PASOK apo to 1993 kiolas eixe pei oti qa ton allajei, alla den ton allaje, ton ajiopoihse gia polles ekloges kai gia polles nikes dikes toy- tote to shmerino eklogiko apotelesma qa eixe dwsei sth Nea Dhmokratia panw apo 162 edres. Me ayto to eklogiko systhma poy leme, me tis dyo parembaseis, oysiastika o ariqmos twn edrwn den ayjanetai panw apo 5 h 6 edres apo tis yparxoyses. Einai dhladh mia kinhsh h opoia enisxyei to prwto komma, opoio kai an einai ayto. Epishs, qelw na shmeiwsw oti ayto to opoio kanoyme -kai oi skeceis tis opoies anefera prohgoymenws me aformh thn erwthsh synadelfoy sas- den einai kommatika idioteles. Dioti gnwrizete poly kala oti o eklogikos nomos isxyei gia tis meqepomenes ekloges. Den qewrw, dhladh, oti kinoymeqa me thn idioteleia thn opoia kinhqhke se dyo periptwseis h shmerinh ajiwmatikh antipoliteysh kai to 1988 alla kai to 2004. Einai mia tomh h opoia enisxyei thn aytodynamia ths kybernhshs. H tomh ayth pisteyw oti qa ektimhqei deontws apo oloys toys emplekomenoys sto politiko systhma, kaqoson den ephreazei thn analogikothta para se elaxisto pososto kai eidika gia to deytero komma.

GKOYTZANHS: Dhladh, ginetai pio analogikotero to systhma; Giati sthn arxh, otan jekinhsate...

ROYSOPOYLOS: De ginetai pio analogiko to systhma, den ephreazei omws thn analogikothta, as poyme, sta mikra kommata. Ta mikra kommata paramenoyn peripoy sta idia pososta, ston idio ariqmo edrwn.

GKOYTZANHS: Egw den katalaba to krithrio poy xrhsimopoihqhke gia na pame apo tis 40 stis 50 kai oxi stis 60 h stis 100.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ennoeite poia einai h skech pisw apo ton ariqmo 10;

GKOYTZANHS: Nai, kai to krithrio.

ROYSOPOYLOS: H skech pisw apo ton ariqmo 40 ths kybernhshs toy PASOK, exete apanthsei ston eayto sas poia htan; Dioti to PASOK, sas qymizw oti edwse ena prim 40 edrwn.

GKOYTZANHS: Kalypta th Nea Dhmokratia kai den ekana erwthseis ston tote ekproswpo k. Roysopoyle. Ean ekana na eiste sigoyros oti qa ton rwtoysa.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Sas eipa poia einai ta apotelesmata ta opoia fernei aytos o nomos. Oysiastika meiwnei ton ariqmo twn edrwn toy deyteroy kommatos se mikro ariqmo omws opws diapistwnei kapoios, toylaxiston an kanei anagwgh me ta apotelesmata ths 16hs Septembrioy- kai enisxyei, pali se mikro ariqmo edrwn, to prwto komma, to komma poy kanei kybernhsh.

TSIOYFOS: Eipate gia ena allo eklogiko systhma, poy xreiazetai kai mia dioikhtikh allagh, den mporei na ejantlhqei h syzhthsh se ena diasthma dyo h triwn mhnwn. Kai einai apolyta swsto. To allo eklogiko systhma qelei mia syzhthsh megalhs diarkeias. Me dedomeno omws oti to systhma to opoio proteinete qa efarmostei, kalws exontwn twn pragmatwn kai throymenwn twn diadikasiwn kai twn xronwn, to 2015, den yphrxe o xronos aytos mexri to 2015 na symfwnhsete se ena allo systhma; H mhpws h spoydh na chfisete twra ena tetoio systhma shmainei oti qa pate pio grhgora, qa meiwsete toys xronoys twn syntagmatikwn diadikasiwn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Kat` arxas, xwris na qewrhqei xaritologhma ayto poy qa pw, qewrw oti me thn erwthsh sas dinete sth Nea Dhmokratia eklogikes nikes ews to 2015. Kai giati to lew ayto: H prwtoboylia, opws jerete, mporei na analhfqei -kai na exei apotelesma- apo mia kybernhsh. Emeis loipon ws kybernhsh desmeythkame na kanoyme kapoia pragmata kai ena apo ayta htan kai h allagh toy eklogikoy nomoy. Kai stis desmeyseis mas, mexri stigmhs kai malista se poly syntomo xrono meta tis ekloges, exete dei oti eimaste plhrws antistoixoi me ta osa eipame proeklogika h stis programmatikes mas dhlwseis. Ara, loipon, proxwrhsame kai proxwrame s` ayto to dromo. Xreiazetai kybernhtikh prwtoboylia gia na ginei allagh sth Boylh. H kybernhtikh pleiochfia einai ayth h opoia eishgeitai nomosxedia, xwris na shmainei oti den mporei na eishghqei kai h meiochfia nomosxedia. Epanalambanw pws se o,ti afora thn opoiadhpote peraiterw qesmikh allagh, ekei mporei na ginei mia syzhthsh, h opoia omws xreiazetai kai polla alla pragmata. Na sas dwsw ena paradeigma, giati yparxei mia antifash se ayta ta opoia akoyw apo thn ajiwmatikh antipoliteysh: Xwris na to exei onomasei, to PASOK oysiastika anaferetai sto legomeno ``germaniko systhma''. Ean ayto isxyei -alla kai na mhn isxyei h ennoia toy ``germanikoy systhmatos''- h oysia toy omws etsi opws paroysiasthke apo stelexh toy PASOK kai apo ton k. Papandreoy, dhlwnei oti pame se boyleytes eklegmenoys me lista. H lista, omws, sas qymizw sto ``germaniko systhma'', den einai lista poy orizei o arxhgos toy kommatos, alla einai lista poy orizetai meta apo eswkommatikes ekloges. Kai h seira thn opoia katalambanei kapoios exei na kanei me th seira ekloghs toy mesa sto komma. Xreiazetai allagh toy yparxontos Syntagmatos. Apo thn allh pleyra  kai enw to gnwrizei ayto to PASOK, oti xreiazetai allagh toy yparxontos Syntagmatos- einai ekeino to komma to opoio arneitai na metexei sth syntagmatikh anaqewrhsh. Exei, loipon, toylaxiston mia antifash ayto mesa toy. Tetoia qemata, megala qesmika qemata, xreiazontai sobarh antimetwpish. Kai sobarh antimetwpish shmainei ``ayto poy lew, to ennow''. Shmainei oti otan mpw sthn atrapo ths syzhthshs, den prospaqw na jefygw me eyfyologhmata, alla mpainw etsi wste h atrapos na ginei dromos kai megalh lewforos gia na exei qesmiko apotelesma gia ton idio ton topo. Emeis, loipon, proxwrame se ayto poy desmeythkame, ayto einai ena to kratoymeno Kai apo kei pera, eimaste anoixtoi se syzhthseis oi opoies xreiazontai poly perissotero xrono.

TSIOYFOS: Qewrw oti de moy apanthsate. Rwtaw: Mexri to 2015 den qa mporoyse na syzhthqei otidhpote allo, efoson ayto to systhma to opoio proteinete twra qa efarmostei to 2015;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Tote, prwton, na sas eyxaristhsw poy lete oti qa eimaste kybernhsh to 2015.

TSIOYFOS: De lew ayto. Lew oti qa efarmostei to 2015.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Deyteron, na sas qymisw oti me bash to Syntagma mas, sth Boylh prwtoboylia eishghshs nomosxediwn exoyn kai oi dyo pleyres, kai h kybernhsh kai h antipoliteysh. Wstoso, praktikh einai ta nomosxedia ths kybernhshs na chfizontai apo thn kybernhtikh pleiochfia. Emeis, loipon  triton kai shmantikotero- tis desmeyseis mas tis kanoyme prajh. As aitiasete alloys, oi opoioi alla yposxontai kai alla kanoyn. Epanalambanw kai qymizw, xwris na qelw na fortisw to politiko klima: To komma to opoio se dyo krisimes periptwseis allaje eklogiko nomo kai ton ekane analogikotero, oysiastika apagoreyontas apo to prwto komma na parei ton ariqmo edrwn poy qa epairne an isxye o prohgoymenos, htan to PASOK. Egine kai to 1988, enocei toy 1989 kai qymaste pleiochfies ths tajews toy 47% kai 48% na mh dinoyn kybernhsh- egine kai to 2004. Emeis, loipon, ayto to opoio leme, to kanoyme prajh kai to ennooyme. Kai koitame toys polites sta matia me jekaqaro blemma, legontas toys pws exoyn ta pragmata, pws pisteyoyme oti prepei na pane.

TERZHS: Sxetika me thn kritikh pros to PASOK gia th syntagmatikh anaqewrhsh, ypoqetw oti kai o k. Soyflias gnwrizei thn anagkh syntagmatikhs anaqewrhshs gia to ``germaniko systhma''. Ayto einai to ena. To deytero: Oi boyleytes ths Neas Dhmokratias enekrinan ws anaqewrhtea th diatajh gia thn ayjhsh twn boyleytwn Epikrateias, poy einai h bash gia to ``germaniko'';

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oi boyleytes ths Neas Dhmokratias, opws jerete, oxi, den thn enekrinan. Kai o k. Soyflias, gia na apanthsw se ayto poy lete, bebaiws kai to gnwrizei kai bebaiws einai melos ths kybernhtikhs pleiochfias, h opoia eishghqhke thn anaqewrhsh, ara den katalabainw thn parathrhsh sas. Ektos kai an qelete na th dieykrinisete. Ayta ta pragmata, loipon, me bash th dikh sas parathrhsh, apodeiknyoyn oti xreiazetai mia seira pollwn syzhthsewn. Xreiazetai synainesh, panw ap` ola, allagh nootropiwn. Den einai eykolo apo th mia mera sthn allh. Opws poly swsta parathrhsate, den enekriqh apo toys idioys toys boyleytes to na ayjhqoyn oi 12 h 15 kata to Syntagma shmera 12 einai poy xrhsimopoioyntai alla ews 15 exei th dynatothta na paei o nomoqeths me bash to Syntagma mas poy isxyei shmera- oi edres Epikrateias stis 30. Einai, loipon, zhthmata ta opoia den antimetwpizontai, opws gnwrizete, me mia apofash ths opoiasdhpote kybernhshs. Gi` ayto problepoyn eyryterh dynath synainesh kai gi` ayto xreiazontai poly megalo dialogo, makry dialogo, o opoios den jerei kaneis poy qa katalhjei kai an qa katalhjei en telei.

ELEYQEROGLOY: Kyrie Ypoyrge, exete ypologisei apo poy qa xaqoyn aytes oi 10 edres, wste na yparxei analogikothta kai sthn ekproswphsh nomwn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ti ennoeite; Apo nomoys;

ELEYQEROGLOY: Nai.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oxi, giati ta apotelesmata twn eklogwn ths 16hs Septembrioy, de qa einai ta idia me ta apotelesmata twn eklogwn ths opoias hmeromhnias sto mellon, opws den htan kai ths 16hs Septembrioy me ta opoia sto parelqon. Qelw na pw, dhladh, oti kaqe fora chfizoyn diaforetika oi polites, allo pososto gia to kaqe komma kai me bash ton eklogiko nomo, o opoios eklogikos nomos isxyei sto 99%. To mono poy allazei einai o ariqmos, ta mona dyo stoixeia einai ayta poy sas eipa. Den einai to 99%; Einai to 90%, pantws.

KAKALHS: Telika, h kybernhsh tis kameres tis qelei gia th diaxeirish ths kykloforias h gia thn parakoloyqhsh twn diadhlwsewn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: H kybernhsh exei dhlwsei pws nomizei oti prepei na xrhsimopoioyntai oi kameres kai exei proxwrhsei kai stis nomimes diadikasies. Sas qymizw, gia paradeigma, oti phre ennea mhnes sto armodio ypoyrgeio, prokeimenoy na labei thn adeia ths anejarthths arxhs kai  an de me apata h mnhmh moy- afoy sto metajy eixame kai nekroys, gia na xrhsimopoioyntai kameres sta ghpeda.

KAKALHS: H kybernhsh pisteyete oti threi th nomimothta otan den perimenei thn apofash toy StE;

ROYSOPOYLOS: H kybernhsh threi th nomimothta. Htan parontes eisaggeleis sth diarkeia ths poreias toy Polytexneioy, an anafereste se ayto. Den yphrje kanenos eidoys parabiash.

KAKALHS: Giati den perimenate thn apofash toy StE gia na apofanqei gia th xrhsh twn kamerwn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Epanalambanw: Den yparxei kamia parabiash. Den egine pote kamia parabiash.

KAKALHS: Exei ginei, giati parakoloyqoysate tis diadhlwseis.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Poios to leei ayto;

KAKALHS: Oi pantes to lene kai giati na mhn einai etsi;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Poioi einai oi ``pantes''; Oi ``Agioi Pantes'', to lene, oi ``pantes'' genikws; Poioi akribws; Mporeite na moy peite;

KAKALHS: To lene oi elegktes. Oi elegktes ths Arxhs.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den isxyei, loipon, dioti htan parontes eisaggeleis.

KAKALHS: Giati na sas pistecoyme; Poios elegxei, poios mpainei mesa sto kentro epixeirhsewn; Yparxei to abato kai to...

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oi eisaggeleis. Dhladh, h Anejarthth Dikaiosynh. Ti ennoeite legontas ``giati na me pistecete'';

GKOYTZANHS: Den einai oi eisaggeleis, kyrie Ekproswpe, h Anejarthth Dikaiosynh. Einai to StE, thn apofash toy opoioy eixate pei, ws kybernhsh, oti qa perimenete. Ayth einai h erwthsh kai gi` ayto kai diamartyrhqhke h Arxh Prostasias, paraitoymenh. Se ayto den exei apanthsei h kybernhsh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Sto Qalamo Epixeirhsewn Elegxoy Kykloforias, to gnwsto QEPEK, metexoyn eisaggeleis. Den mporei, loipon, kapoios ston aera na kanei kataggelies oti yphrjan parakoloyqhseis peran twn oswn problepei o nomos. Yparxoyn eisaggeleis parontes. An, loipon, eseis amfisbhteite thn anejarthsia ths Dikaiosynhs einai diko sas problhma.

GKOYTZANHS: To aplopoieite kyrie Ekproswpe. Den mporei na einai krites ths nomimothtas oi eisaggeleis. To jerete.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Poioi prepei na einai kata th gnwmh sas;

GKOYTZANHS: Oi eisaggeleis einai dhmosioi kathgoroi, kyrie Ekproswpe.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oi eisaggeleis poy paristantai sto Qalamo Epixeirhsewn kai elegxoyn an o nomos threitai h oxi, de mporoyn na metexoyn, kata th dikh sas gnwmh, kai na krinoyn an threitai o nomos h oxi;

GKOYTZANHS: Den exei shmasia an einai dikh moy gnwmh. Shmasia exei h gnwmh ths Arxhs Prostasias Proswpikwn Dedomenwn h opoia einai syntagmatika katoxyrwmenh kai h opoia, diamartyromenh gia ayth th taktikh thn opoia kataggellei ws paranomh, paraithqhke. Kai yparxei ena erwthma. Efoson ekkremei h apofash toy Symboylioy ths Epikrateias poy den qa amfisbhthsw ws apofash pia ths dikastikhs ejoysias, giati den th perimene h kybernhsh kai espeyse na balei toys eisaggeleis na krinoyn th nomimothta kai etsi na wqhsei se paraithsh thn Arxh Prostasias. Ayto einai to erwthma. To jerete.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Nomizw, oti sygxeete pragmata.

GKOYTZANHS: Kaqoloy, kyrie Ekproswpe.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Epanalambanw gia na to gnwrizete: Sth diarkeia ths poreias toy Polytexneioy sto qalamo epixeirhsewn htan parwn eisaggeleas. Oydemia parabash h parabiash toy nomoy parathrhqhke.

KAKALHS: Wraia. Giati den afhsate toys elegktes ths Arxhs na mpoyne mesa sto qalamo epixeirhsewn. Yparxei abato; Yparxei stegano;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den gnwrizw an den afhsan kapoioi thn Arxh na mpei sto qalamo epixeirhsewn. Exw thn entypwsh oti h Arxh mphke polles fores sto qalamo twn epixeirhsewn.

KAKALHS: Den eixe mpei. Eixe mpei sthn aiqoysa me ta monitor.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Otan leme ``qalamos epixeirhsewn'' ekei einai h aiqoysa me ta monitor. An eixate akoloyqhsei thn proolympiakh periodo -kai o Prwqypoyrgos eixe episkefqei to QEPEK- qa eixate dei pws einai ayth h aiqoysa. Einai prosbasimh se dhmosiografoys. Allwste, ekei yphrxan dhmosiografoi poy parakoloyqoysan, ekeinh thn periodo dipla-dipla me ta stelexh ths Astynomias kai alla stelexh ypoyrgeiwn, thn kykloforia.

KAKALHS: Apo qesh arxhs, h kybernhsh pisteyei oti h parakoloyqhsh twn diadhlwsewn den parabiazei to syntagmatiko dikaiwma toy synerxesqai;

ROYSOPOYLOS: H kybernhsh exei kanei polles fores dhlwsh gia ayta ta qemata.

XIDIROGLOY: Epitrecte moy na allajw qema. Shmera an den kanw laqos khdeyetai enas 64 xronos Ellhnokyprios epixeirhmatias onomati Stefanoy o opoios katelhje sta xeria twn paranomwn arxwn toy ceydokratoys. Yparxoyn isxyres endeijeis oti o anqrwpos aytos kakopoihqhke. Symfwna me ta osa eipe Ellhnas iatrodikasths o opoios paresth sth sxetikh diadikasia o anqrwpos eixe 11 spasmena pleyra. Ayto poy qelw na rwthsw einai to ejhs: Ektos apo tis opoies antidraseis ths Kypriakhs kybernhshs, qa yparjei kai opoiadhpote parastash ek meroys ths Ellhnikhs kybernhshs, enhmerwsh dieqnoys foroym etsi wste na dhmosiopoihqei to zhthma kai mia kthnwdia kai barbarothta ek meroys twn diwktikwn arxwn katoxhs;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den gnwrizw to qema. Opote qa prepei na moy dwsete to xrono prokeimenoy na enhmerwqw kai na sas apanthsw.

SIOYFOS: Kyrie Ekproswpe mia proswpikh erwthsh: An den kanw laqos diathreite akoma thn idiothta toy meloys ths Enwshs Syntaktwn. Anejarthta omws apo ayto, ws dhmosiografos pws krinete, pws sxoliazete thn xqesinh dhlwsh toy k. Maggina se oti afora tis ryqmiseis gia ta asfalistika dikaiwmata twn dhmosiografwn kai th dialysh toy TSPEAQ oysiastika.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den mporw na apantw me bash thn prohgoymenh idiothta moy ws dhmosiografoy. Ontws eimai melos ths ESHEA. Den kanw xrhsh ths idiothtas moy, dhladh den chfizw stis ekloges ths Enwshs Syntaktwn. Kai ayto einai mia apofash, qewrwntas oti sth qesh poy briskomai, dokimo qa htan na mhn askw to dikaiwma ayto to opoio moy dinei to epaggelmatiko swmateio sto opoio yparxw, ejaitias toy oti doyleca 20 xronia ws dhmosiografos. Apo ekei kai pera h kybernhsh -opws eipa kai prohgoymenws- analyei tis qeseis ths gia to asfalistiko systhma. Kai pisteyei oti h proseggish thn opoia kanei einai mia proseggish gia na beltiwsei tis synqhkes, etsi wste na mhn ftasoyme se liga xronia na exoyme megala problhmata. Giati ayta einai, me bash tis meletes twn analogistwn-dedomeno oti qa erqoyn- gia na mporesoyme na paradwsoyme ena asfalistiko systhma kalytero apo ayto to opoio exoyme paralabei.

SMYRNHS: Xqes o Ypoyrgos Dikaiosynhs k. Xatzhgakhs sth Boylh xarakthrise to porisma Zormpa ws diadikastiko eggrafo. H erwthsh einai aplh. Epeidh o k. Zormpas dioristhke apo thn kybernhsh kai toy anateqhke ena poly shmantiko ergo kai polles fores kai eseis apo ayto to xwro eixate parapemcei otan sas rwtagame gia to qema twn omologwn, sto porisma Zormpa. Pisteyei h kybernhsh oti o k. Zormpas apetyxe sto rolo poy toy anateqhke gia ayto to eggrafo toy xarakthrizetai diadikastiko;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den qa kanw krish gia to ergo kanenos. Alla, qa sas pw oti oydepote egw apo th qesh ayth parepemca sto porisma Zormpa. Den qa breite oyte mia tetoia dhlwsh moy.

GKOYTZANHS: To porisma Zormpa parakamptetai. H Arxh Prostasias Proswpikwn Dedomenwn odhgeitai se paraithsh. Oi kameres qa parakoloyqoyn ta panta stoys dromoys; Mhpws einai bhmata gia na epistrecete sto astynomiko kratos ths Dejias;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ena pros ena ta qemata. Se o,ti afora to porisma Zormpa: To porisma Zormpa exei kriqei apo thn Dikaiosynh. H ypertath Arxh einai h Dikaiosynh se ayto to qema, giati ayth einai poy asxoleitai me thn ypoqesh twn omologwn. Ara loipon apo th stigmh poy kapoios zei se mia Dhmokratia, sebetai to Syntagma, ofeilei na sebastei thn Dikaiosynh kai tis apofaseis ths, asxetws an qewrei oti qa eprepe na einai diaforetikes. Kai den milaw gia mena profanws, milaw gia ton syntajanta to porisma endexomenws. Ara loipon, efoson eimaste se Dhmokratia ofeiloyme na sebastoyme to Syntagma mas, toys kanones dhladh ths Dhmokratias kai th Dikaiosynh. Gia thn paraithsh melwn ths Anejarthths Arxhs Prostasias Proswpikwn Dedomenwn: Paraithqhkan ontws o proedros kai 4 h 5 melh, nomizw 5 melh apo ta 14 melh ths Arxhs. Einai proswpikh toys apofash. Sas qymizw oti h qhteia toys exei lhjei edw kai para polloys mhnes. To anaferw aplws gia na to katagracete kai ayto sta stoixeia toy reportaz sas.

GKOYTZANHS: Kai eseis den thn allajate ws eixate ypoxrewsh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Sas qymizw loipon se kaqe periptwsh -kai qa eyxaristhsw gia thn erwthsh- oti xreiazetai h pleiochfia twn 4/5 ths diaskechs twn proedrwn ths Boylhs. Kai sas qymizw oti oydepote to komma ths ajiwmatikhs antipoliteyshs synainese sto na allajoyn sthn wra toys ta melh twn Anejarthtwn Arxwn poy eixe lhjei h qhteia toys. Exoyme dhladh qhteies melwn Anejarthtwn Arxwn poy exoyn lhjei apo ton Ioynio toy 2006, gia paradeigma opws sto ESR poy tyxainei na to gnwrizw akoma kalytera apo tis ypoloipes Arxes. Kai oydepote synainese, stis protaseis tis opoies ekane h Proedros ths Boylhs tote ka Mpenakh, to komma ths ajiwmatikhs antipoliteyshs. Eixe synainesei kai o SYRIZA kai to KKE. Hrneito loipon to komma ths ajiwmatikhs antipoliteyshs ayto poy sas lew, sigoyra gia to ESR. Gia ta ypoloipa jerw oti hrneito to PASOK. Den jerw an eixan synainesei ta alla 2 kommata ths aristeras. Antiqetws omws -kai deite logikh, deite sebasmo stoys qesmoys: H Nea Dhmokratia ws antipoliteysh den arnhqhke pote kai etsi mporesan na exoyn oi Anejarthtes Arxes proedreia kai symboylia. Den arnhqhke ayto to dialogo. Symmeteixe sto dialogo kai synainese. Exoyme, loipon, proedroys Anejarthtwn Arxwn, oi opoioi exoyn topoqethqei stis qeseis aytes apo thn pleiochfia PASOK sth Boylh. To PASOK sthn poreia anti na deijei dhmokratikh eyaisqhsia  blepw ton ekproswpo toy twra na deixnei mia dhmokratikh eyaisqhsia ``bgainontas apo ta royxa toy'', alla de leei stoys polites oti epi ena h enamisy xrono to idio hrneito na mpei sth diadikasia ayth ths dhmokratias thn opoia epibalei to Syntagma- fwnazei, dhmioyrgei entypwseis. As krinei kapoios loipon kai th Nea Dhmokratia, ws kybernhsh kai ws antipoliteysh kai to PASOK ws kybernhsh kai ws antipoliteysh.

GKOYTZANHS: Efoson kaqe fora mas parapempete sth Dikaiosynh, edw sas lew aplws oti me to qema twn kamerwn de diafwnhse mono o k. Goyrgoyrakhs poy paraithqhke kai eipe oti yparxei paranomia apo thn pleyra ths ektelestikhs ejoysias kai ths kybernhshs, alla kai o prohgoymenos proedros k. Dafermos bghke kai ekane dhlwseis opoy leei to idio pragma. Alla etsi opws ypobaqmizete...

ROYSOPOYLOS: Kai oi apoceis toys exoyn ginei sebastes, ews otoy kriqei telesidika apo to Symboylio ths Epikrateias. Den exoyn parabiastei.

GKOYTZANHS: E, ayto lene kai ekeinoi. Giati den perimenate thn telesidikh apofash toy Symboylioy ths Epikrateias kai biasthkate na balete toys eisaggeleis krites;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ma, kanete kapoio laqos.

GKOYTZANHS: S ayto den exei apanthsei h kybernhsh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Epanalambanw oti kanete laqos. Isws de gnwrizete kala to qema.

GKOYTZANHS: Poly kala.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den mphke kanenas kriths. Yparxoyn dynatothtes apo to Symboylio ths Epikrateias kai apo ton Eisaggelea toy Areioy Pagoy na topoqethqoyn. O Eisaggeleas toy Areioy Pagoy, topoqethqhke hdh. Perimenoyme th qesh toy Symboylioy ths Epikrateias. Den yparxei kamia parabiash ths apofasews ths Arxhs. Oydeis pote parakoloyqhse peran twn apofasewn ths Arxhs. Ayth einai h diabebaiwsh thn opoia exw apo to armodio ypoyrgeio apo to Qalamo Epixeirhsewn...

GKOYTZANHS: Oxi, den einai etsi.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Htan parwn, eisaggeleas sto Qalamo Epixeirhsewn.

GKOYTZANHS: Eipame peran twn apofasewn ths Arxhs...

ROYSOPOYLOS: Nai, qelw na pw oti den parabiasthkan oi apofaseis aytes.

GKOYTZANHS: H Arxh eixe apofasisei... oti den mporei na ginei xrhsh twn kamerwn gia thn diadhlwsh. Ara, egine parabiash.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ektos kai an ypainissetai kapoios oti o parwn, sto qalamo epixeirhsewn, eisaggeleas exei parabiasei to nomo. Epitrecte moy na pw oti egw den to isxyrizomai ayto. An to isxyrizetai kapoios eyqarsws oti o eisaggeleas poy einai parwn parabiazei to nomo, aytos exei ...

GKOYTZANHS: Einai allo h apofash toy eisaggelea kai allo h apofash ths Arxhs. H Arxh to leei, den to leme emeis. Kai eseis eipate oti den egine parabiash kai twn apofasewn ths Arxhs. H idia h Arxh kathggeile oti egine parabiash ths apofashs ths na mhn xrhsimopoihqoyn oi kameres sth diadhlwsh ths 17hs Noembrioy.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Nai kai sas lew oti htan parwn o eisaggeleas, dhladh, anejarthtos leitoyrgos ths Dikaiosynhs, o opoios den diapistwse kamia parabiash.

KAKALHS: Me dedomenh th boylhsh ths kybernhshs omws na ginontai parakoloyqhseis, ti na diapistwsei o eisaggeleas; Kati diaforetiko;

ROYSOPOYLOS: H kybernhsh omws sebetai to nomo kai ayto fainetai oti to threi.

KAKALHS: To Syntagma leei oti (den akoygetai)

ROYSOPOYLOS: H kybernhsh exei safeis apoceis kai tis exei pei. Sas anaferw to paradeigma: Epi enteka mhnes h kybernhsh eixe safh apoch kai zhtoyse, dia toy yfypoyrgoy Aqlhtismoy, na epitrapei h dynatothta na topoqethqoyn kameres entos twn ghpedwn. Opws egine se oles tis alles sobares xwres ths E.E kai katapolemhqhke h egklhmatikothta sta ghpeda. Edw sthn Ellada perimename enteka mhnes apo thn Arxh, bghke h apofash, sebasthkame aytoys toys enteka mhnes kai den kaname tipota, sebasthkame kai thn apofash ths Arxhs kai pleon yparxoyn kameres sta ghpeda.

GKOYTZANHS: Sygkrinete diaforetika pragmata k. Ekproswpe. Einai allo h bia sta ghpeda kai einai allo oi eirhnikes diadhlwseis oi opoies parakoloyqoyntai.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den gnwrizw ti ennoeite allo to ena kai allo to allo...

GKOYTZANHS: Ektos kai an qewreite oti...

ROYSOPOYLOS: Sigoyra diaforetikh xroia exei h bia entos ghpedwn h ektos ghpedwn. Se kaqe periptwsh milame gia qemata ta opoia mas apasxolhsan sth diarkeia ths prohgoymenhs qhteias. Sas lew jekaqara poia einai h qesh ths kybernhshs.

GKOYTZANHS: ``Aretai men pollai, anwtera de diakrisis'', elegan oi arxaioi hmwn progonoi. Epitrecte moy omws mia teleytaia erwthsh gia to Asfalistiko. Epeidh anaferqhkate sta 65 xronia kai eipate oti ayto den allazei, wstoso den qa isxyei pia oyte h 35etia, oyte h 37etia, ayto den einai mia metabolh toy orioy gia osoys qa eixan symplhrwsei mexri twra ayta ta oria; Kai ena deytero oti h syntajh qa dinetai pia me bash thn 10etia; Ayto shmainei safws meiwsh twn syntajimwn apodoxwn.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ofeilei kapoios na dei me sobarothta kai ypeyqynothta to Asfalistiko. Kai sas to lew ayto, oxi ws proswpikh parathrhsh se esas alla synolikotera ws parathrhsh ths kybernhshs. H kybernhsh prospaqei na bohqhsei na beltiwqoyn oi synqhkes ekeines oi opoies qa epitrepoyn kai stis epomenes genies na pairnoyn syntajh. Ayto prepei na to katanohsoyme oloi mas. H kybernhsh den erxetai apo kapoioy eidoys alles logikes na allajei to Asfalistiko systhma. Erxetai me ena kai mono stoxo: To Asfalistiko systhma, an synexisei etsi, se liga xronia qa katarreysei kai den qa yparxoyn kaqoloy syntajeis. Einai jekaqaro ayto. Den to leei kapoios ypoyrgos onomati Magginas h Roysopoylos h kapoios allos. Ayto to lene oi gnwstes toy qematos, oi analogistes, aytoi poy gnwrizoyn poly kala to ti isxyei sto Asfalistiko kai to ti ginetai sta Tameia. Ean loipon mia kybernhsh den staqei me sobarothta apenanti se ayton ton kindyno, tote antilambanetai kapoios oti afhnei sto eleos ths epomenhs kybernhshs, ths meqepomenhs, twn epomenwn genewn mia katastash thn opoia dyskola qa diaxeirizetai pleon. Apo kei jekinoyn ola. Kai eipame jekaqara oti den allazei to orio hlikias twn 60 etwn gia tis gynaikes, 65 etwn gia toys antres. Eipame oti an kapoios qelei na meinei perissotera xronia sth doyleia, ews tria xronia perissotera, tote qa parei beltiwmenh syntajh.

GKOYTZANHS: Katarxhn egw qa sas elega pws den ginetai dialogos, giati ta epixeirhmata ayta den einai dika moy, einai twn forewn, egw aplws ta metaferw kai fainetai oti den ginetai dialogos metajy aytwn twn forewn kai ths kybernhshs, giati h kybernhsh den apanta se ayta ta erwthmata. Alla qa hqela na rwthsw kai kati allo. H logikh ths kybernhshs me tis sygxwneyseis einai oti katastrefei ygih Tameia gia na kalycei tis trypes se Tameia poy einai problhmatika. Ayto poy rwtw einai: To Tameio gia paradeigma twn boyleytwn h twn dikastikwn h twn stratiwtikwn qa mpoyn se ayth th diadikasia h aytoi qa diaswqoyn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Eilikrina xairomai idiaiterws gia thn erwthsh, giati moy dinetai h eykairia na sas pw merika pragmata perissotera gia to Asfalistiko. To systhma shmera exei peri ta 175 kyria kai epikoyrika Tameia. An ejairesoyme ta poly - poly mikra, einai 150 Tameia, ta opoia einai mesaia kai panw. As doyme ligo to qema twn sygxwneysewn: An ypoqesoyme oti se ayta ta 175 Tameia exoyme symboylia ths tajews twn 11 h 15 melwn, antilambanetai kaneis oti exoyme peripoy 2.000 melh dioikhtikwn symboyliwn Tameiwn sthn kalyterh periptwsh. Meiwnontas ton ariqmo se 5 kyria kai 9 deytereyonta epikoyrika, ftanontas dhladh sta 14 Tameia, gia paradeigma - lew enan ariqmo o opoios akoysthke hdh sth Boylh - tote antilambanetai kaneis oti o ariqmos twn 2.000 melwn dioikhtikwn symboyliwn, meiwnetai amesws  amesws se 150. Einai amesws  amesws ena shmantiko noikokyrema gia thn leitoyrgia twn Tameiwn. Giati gnwrizete oti alliws diaxeirizetai ena Tameio enas poy me mia omada anqrwpwn poy mexri twra gnwrizame pws den pernoysan apo kapoia idiaiterh krish. Kai ayth h kybernhsh allaje ton tropo topoqethshs toys, me thn epitroph Kefalaiagoras kai thn Trapeza ths Ellados. Alliws qa to diaxeirizontai kapoioi anqrwpoi oi opoioi qa einai se megalytero organismo, poy qa exei ginei apo thn synenwsh pollwn Tameiwn. Ara loipon epitygxanetai se praktiko epipedo meiwsh toy ariqmoy twn epikefalhs dioikoyntwn ta Tameia, me oti ayto shmainei. Shmainei sigoyra noikokyrema.

To deytero: Ta Tameia se ayth th fash kai gia polla xronia qa entaxqoyn se megalyteroys organismoys diathrwntas to kaqena th dikh toy aytonomia. Exontas, dhladh, to Tameio twn dhmosiografwn gia paradeigma, mias kai eida oti yphrje idiaitero endiaferon, thn perioysia thn opoia exei. Den qa parei kaneis thn perioysia toy. Ekeino to opoio qa arxisei na ginetai einai oti ena pososto toy poroy, poy einai koinwnikos poros - den qa mpoyme leptomerestera se ayth th syzhthsh - ena mikro pososto toy poroy, nomizw ths tajews toy 10%, qa arxisei na mpainei sto koino tameio, ston megalo organismo. Stadiaka loipon se para polla xronia, se 30  35 xronia, qa ftasoyn ta pragmata na exoyn odhghsei tote se mia sygklhsh, me thn taytoxronh analogikh syneisfora twn ergazomenwn kai twn asfalismenwn se kaqe Tameio. Den qa niwqete, dhladh, eseis ws dhmosiografos oti plhrwsate perissoteres eisfores kai adikhqhkate epeidh eiste sto idio Tameio me kapoion o opoios plhrwse ligoteres eisfores. H prospaqeia poy ginetai einai mia prospaqeia analogikhs lyshs twn problhmatwn, etsi wste na mhn yparxei ayto to synaisqhma, to opoio to katalabainw kai oxi monon epeidh hmoyn dhmosiografos, alla to katalabainw kai anqrwpinws. H aisqhsh, dhladh, toy dikaioy, h opoia qa dhmioyrghqei apo ayton ton kainoyrgio organismo ston opoio qa mpoyn kapoia Tameia gia na dhmioyrghqei anti gia ena Tameio, ena poly megalytero. H prooptikh ayth exei na kanei kai me oikonomies klimakos, exei na kanei kai me kalyteres diaxeiristikes logikes kai me mia seira apo alla pragmata, ta opoia o k. Magginas, eimai bebaios, oti qa exei thn eykairia na ta analysei sthn epomenh synedriash ths epitrophs ths Boylhs. As to doyme, loipon, prwta sto baqos toy to qema kai me ayta poy proteinei h kybernhsh kai as eimaste kritikoi afoy exoyme analysei oles tis parametroys.

Sas eyxaristw.

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