Greek Government Press Briefing, 98-10-14

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

YPOYRGEIO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS

Aqhna, 14 Oktwbrioy 1998

H ENHMERWSH TWN POLITIKWN SYNTAKTWN KAI TWN ANTAPOKRITWN JENOY TYPOY APO TON YPOYRGO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS KAI KYBERNHTIKO EKPROSWPO DHMHTRH REPPA

Geia sas. Opws gnwrizete, oloklhrwqhke xqes sthn Attaleia h Synanthsh Koryfhs twn hgetwn twn xwrwn ths Notianatolikhs Eyrwphs. H idea ths Ellhnikhs Kybernhshs poy jekinhse perysi me th Diaskech sthn Krhth, fainetai oti apokta pleon rizes, ginetai qesmos. Ton epomeno xrono h trith Synanthsh Koryfhs qa filojenhqei apo th Roymania sthn Konstatza. Einai shmantiko oti h perioxh mas -h opoia gia polloys einai kai shmera synwnymh ths reystothtas, ths astaqeias kai ths abebaiothtas- ginetai mia perioxh opoy oi hgetes twn kratwn kai twn lawn synantwntai, syzhtoyn ta problhmata toys kai briskoyn tropoys na jepernoyn tis diafores toys mesa apo dialogo kai synennohsh. H Ellada ws h monh xwra poy symmetexei se dyo apo toys megalyteroys Organismoys -to NATO kai thn Eyrwpaikh Enwsh- paizei prwtagwnistiko rolo kai symballei, wste na entaxqoyn stis eyrwpaikes kai eyrw-atlantikes domes kai oi alles xwres ths perioxhs, prokeimenoy na enisxyqoyn oi prospaqeies toys afenos gia thn oikonomikh anaptyjh toys kai afeteroy gia thn empedwsh ths staqerothtas kai ths eirhnhs sthn perioxh.

Eidate -kai kanw ena deytero sxolio- oti yphrje telikws epityxhs katalhjh stis diapragmateyseis gia thn antimetwpish ths krishs sto Kossyfopedio. Ekfrazoyme thn ikanopoihsh kai anakoyfish mas. Eimaste allwste metajy ekeinwn -oi prwtoi isws- poy eixame topoqethqei yper ths anagkhs na anazhthqei lysh sto problhma, mesw ths synennohshs kai toy dialogoy, gia na apofeyxqei h xrhsh stratiwtikhs bias. Pisteyoyme oti h apofash ayth, h opoia metajy twn allwn periexei mia idea poy o Ellhnas Prwqypoyrgos eixe diamhnysei ston hgeth ths Gioygkoslabias apo ton perasmeno Ioylio, qa efarmostei kai sthn prajh. H Ellada qa labei meros sthn omada twn parathrhtwn poy qa diakribwnoyn an threitai h symfwnia. Gia to qema ayto allwste, shmera, ayth thn wra, o Ypoyrgos Ejwterikwn k. Pagkalos dexetai ton bohqo toy k. Xolmproyk, s` ayto to plaisio twn diapragmateysewn, Amerikano presbh sta Skopia, k. Xil. Amesws meta th synanthsh qa ginoyn kapoies dhlwseis. Pisteyoyme oti h xronikh periodos poy akoloyqei qa xarakthrizetai apo hremia sto Kossyfopedio, wste etsi kai s` ayth thn taragmenh perioxh na epanelqoyn h omalothta kai o kanonikos ryqmos zwhs gia toys katoikoys ths. Akoyw tis erwthseis sas.

KARASABBA: Qa hqela na sas rwthsw poios qa einai o ariqmos twn Ellhnwn poy qa laboyn meros s` ayth thn omada twn parathrhtwn kai poso syntoma qa ginei ayth h epixeirhsh.

REPPAS: Sthn omada twn parathrhtwn mporei na laboyn meros oles oi xwres poy einai entagmenes ston OASE. Oi xwres aytes einai perissoteres apo 40. Bebaiws, den einai aparaithto na ekdhlwsoyn endiaferon symmetoxhs oles oi xwres. Emeis eimaste apo tis xwres poy exoyme dhlwsei oti qa laboyme meros. H dynamh twn stelexwn poy qa symmetasxoyn s` ayth th diadikasia poikilei analoga me ton ariqmo twn stelexwn me ta opoia qa symmetasxoyn oi alles xwres. Mporw na milhsw gia liges dekades Ellhnwn parathrhtwn. O ariqmos aytos einai endeiktikos. Eimaste se synennohsh me tis alles xwres, prokeimenoy na laboyme thn telikh kai oristikh apofash mas. Fainetai oti o xronos enarjhs ayths ths apostolhs prepei na topoqeteitai se ena diasthma apo 20 hmeres ews ena mhna apo shmera, alla kai ayto einai kati to opoio ayth thn wra apotelei antikeimeno syzhthshs. Kai sto parelqon exoyme aposteilei parathrhtes gia diafores alles periptwseis. Alloy eixe ekdhlwqei krish kai polemos kai alloy gia thn parakoloyqhsh eklogikwn diadikasiwn, opws sthn Albania. Kaqe fora, analoga me to antikeimeno me to opoio qa asxolhqoyn oi parathrhtes, epilegoyme kai th synqesh ths omadas twn parathrhtwn poy aposteloyme.

LEONTOPOYLOS: Xqes, stis dhlwseis poy kanate to brady, eixate dyo epishmanseis: Prwton, kaloysate ton Roygkoba na paijei prwtagwnistiko rolo sthn eirhneytikh diadikasia. Kai deyteron, kaloysate ton Apeleyqerwtiko Strato na deijei aytosygkrathsh. Mporeite na mas peite perissotera gia to rolo aytwn twn dyo;

REPPAS: Einai h qesh poy exoyme diatypwsei edw kai arketes hmeres. Eixame pei kat` epanalhch oti oles oi pleyres qa prepei na deijoyn aytosygkrathsh kai na apofygoyn th stratiwtikh drasthriothta, tis prajeis bias. Antilambaneste oti o k. Roygkoba, opws kai o -etsi kaloymenos- Apeleyqerwtikos Stratos exoyn symmetoxh sthn prospaqeia gia thn ejomalynsh ths katastashs kai qa prepei na epideijoyn, opws xarakthristika eipa xqes, th gennaiothta poy apaitei h qelhsh na epikrathsei eirhnh. Pisteyoyme oti qa antapokriqoyn s` ayth thn prosklhsh ths Dieqnoys Koinothtas, prokeimenoy na epanelqei h hremia sthn perioxh.

LAKOPOYLOS: Xqes, ta tria -as ta pw etsi- mikra kommata ths Antipoliteyshs aposafhnisan me tropo poy gnwrizete -exoyn kapoies apoxrwseis metajy toys- th qesh toys enocei toy deyteroy gyroy twn dhmotikwn kai nomarxiakwn eklogwn. Qa hqela na sas parakalesw gia ena sxolio ths Kybernhshs.

REPPAS: Tis qeseis twn kommatwn qa tis ajiologhsei to Kinhma mas, to opoio sthrizei ypochfioys kai syndyasmoys stis ekloges poy prokeitai na ginoyn thn erxomenh Kyriakh. H Kybernhsh den parembainei s` ayta. H Kybernhsh pisteyei oti oi metarryqmiseis poy exei prowqhsei sthn Topikh kai Nomarxiakh Aytodioikhsh, katoxyrwnontai. H xwra mas apokta sygxronoys kai leitoyrgikoys qesmoys. Ayto shmainei proodo, shmainei qetikh ejelijh. Pisteyoyme oti oles oi dynameis oi opoies qewroyn pws tetoioy eidoys epiloges qa prepei na diasfalistoyn, na mhn exoyme opoiasdhpote morfhs meiwsh ths ektashs toy periexomenoy kai toy nohmatos twn metarryqmisewn aytwn, qa symporeytoyn, prokeimenoy na dwsoyn etsi apo koinoy th maxh yper aytwn twn katakthsewn sto xwro ths Aytodioikhshs.

LAKOPOYLOS: Pws den parembainei h Kybernhsh; Egw diabazw oti oloi oi Ypoyrgoi exoyn "jamolhqei" sthn epikrateia gia na yposthrijoyn ypochfioys. Alla to afhnw ayto.

REPPAS: Mhn to afhnete kaqoloy. Dioti oi Ypoyrgoi den xanoyn thn idiothta toy kommatikoy meloys. Gnwrizete oti oi perissoteroi exoyn thn idiothta stelexoys se kapoio ychlobaqmo kommatiko organo toy Kinhmatos mas.

LAKOPOYLOS: Eseis kata kairoys exete milhsei gia to xarakthra ths Topikhs Aytodioikhshs, xarakthra poy eseis dwsate sthn Topikh Aytodioikhsh -eseis ws Kybernhsh ennow- kai th sxesh poy exei aytos o xarakthras me thn politikh qesh twn kommatwn, ara, exei qesh h Kybernhsh gia to ti lene ta kommata. Den mporei na mhn exei.

REPPAS: Den ekana pali shmera ayto to sxolio; Den milhsa gia tis allages sto xwro ths Aytodioikhshs; Den eipa oti oles oi dynameis, oi opoies aspazontai aytes tis metarryqmiseis qa prepei na tis diasfalisoyn gia na mhn afydatwqei to nohma kai h ajia aytwn twn tomwn; To eipa, molis prin.

LAKOPOYLOS: Eseis o idios mas eixate milhsei gia thn idiothta me thn opoia o Prwqypoyrgos episkefqhke ton Peiraia kai elabe meros ston eklogiko agwna, ws boyleyths Peiraiws. Sas erwtw twra, ws boyleyths Peiraiws, o Prwqypoyrgos einai ikanopoihmenos apo to apotelesma kai skopeyei na episkefqei ayth thn ebdomada ton Peiraia, ws boyleyths Peiraiws;

REPPAS: Prwta apo ola, den eipa pote ayto to opoio bazete sto stoma moy, me ton tropo me ton opoio to qetete sthn erwthsh sas. Den eipa oti episkefqhke ws boyleyths Peiraia. Eipa, mhn jexnate oti einai kai boyleyths Peiraia kai exei mia eidikh sxesh me ayth thn eklogikh perifereia. Allwste, edw kai polla xronia o laos toy Peiraia ton tima me thn chfo toy kai ton anadeiknyei boyleyth. Den periorisa thn paroysia toy k. Shmith sta oria ths paroysias enos boyleyth, giati eida ki ayto na proballetai kai na kakopoieitai me diafores ermhneies poy doqhkan ayto poy eipa. Eipa oti o Prwqypoyrgos exei mia eidikh sxesh me ton Peiraia, pragma to opoio einai fysiko kai aytonohto, doqentos oti gia polla xronia einai boyleyths Peiraia. Ayto eipa. Den shmainei, omws, oti o k. Shmiths einai mono boyleyths Peiraia.

LAKOPOYLOS: Den phge genikws ston Peiraia, phge sto eklogiko kentro toy ypochfioy dhmarxoy ths perioxhs.

REPPAS: O k. Shmiths eklegetai boyleyths Peiraia gia para polla xronia, gia kapoies apoceis, gia kapoies idees, oi opoies tygxanoyn ths egkrishs twn sympolitwn toy. Gi` ayto akribws, epeidh exei sygkekrimenes idees kai aspazetai orismeno programma, epeleje h paroysia toy ekei na taytistei me tis idees kai to programma poy antapokrinetai stis epiloges ths Kybernhshs kai toy PASOK sto xwro ths Aytodioikhshs. Ki ayto einai to programma toy syndyasmoy toy k. Fwtioy.

LAKOPOYLOS: Einai ikanopoihmenos o Prwqypoyrgos apo to apotelesma ths anametrhshs ston Peiraia; Deyteron, skeptetai na janapaei ston Peiraia;

REPPAS: O Prwqypoyrgos, opws kai ola ta stelexh toy PASOK, exoyn kanei dhlwseis. Exoyn ekdoqei anakoinwseis kai shmera, gnwrizw, oti qa ekdoqei anakoinwsh enocei ths maxhs toy deyteroy gyroy. To PASOK, asfalws, ekfrazei ikanopoihsh, giati oi allages aytes poy exoyn prowqhqei sto xwro ths Aytodioikhshs, katoxyrwnontai kai epishs, ekfrazoyme ikanopoihsh giati pisteyoyme oti ta pososta ta opoia elaban oi ypochfioi eite stis nomarxiakes, eite stis dhmotikes ekloges, twn opoiwn ta programmata kinoyntai s` ayth thn kateyqynsh yperaspishs twn newn qesmwn kai employtismoy toys, einai ychla kai deixnoyn oti to PASOK diathrei thn programmatikh kai politikh hgemonia toy sto politiko fasma ths xwras. Oson afora, to deytero skelos ths erwthshs sas, den exei programmatistei o, tidhpote exei sxesh me paroysia toy Prwqypoyrgoy se kapoies perioxes ths xwras.

LAKOPOYLOS: Qewrei h Kybernhsh oti endexomenh apotyxia, entos h ektos eisagwgikwn, twn syndyasmwn poy yposthrizei to PASOK stis nomarxies kai toys megaloys dhmoys, qa ephreasei to kybernhtiko ergo h ta aposyndeete ayta;

REPPAS: To PASOK, me ta organa toy, qa kanei thn analysh twn apotelesmatwn otan oloklhrwqei h eklogikh diadikasia, meta thn erxomenh Kyriakh. Oson afora, twra, to kybernhtiko ergo, epanalambanw ayta poy kai sto parelqon exw pei: h Kybernhsh einai ypoxrewmenh na synexisei atalanteyta to ergo poy ths aneqese o ellhnikos laos gia na epityxoyme toys megaloys stoxoys. To ergo ayto ejelissetai se ena periballon oikonomikhs kai politikhs staqerothtas poy apoteloyn katakthsh gia thn Ellada, enocei twn synqhkwn poy dhmioyrgoyntai ston kosmo, sto dieqnes periballon. Pisteyoyme oti h Kybernhsh, otan erqei h wra, to 2000, na kriqei gia to ergo ths ws Kybernhsh, apo ton ellhniko lao, qa exei kai pali thn epidokimasia toy kai thn chfo toy.

PAPAXRHSTOS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, mas eipate apantwntas sto synadelfo, ton k. Lakopoylo, oti to qema twn qesewn poy phran ta tria kommata ths elassonos antipoliteyshs aforoyn to PASOK ws komma. Thn Kybernhsh den thn aforoyn;

REPPAS: Gnwrizete oti h Kybernhsh sthrizetai apo to PASOK. Kai gnwrizete poly kala oti h Kybernhsh exei endiaferon, stis ekloges ths erxomenhs Kyriakhs na epikrathsoyn ta proswpa kai oi syndyasmoi twn opoiwn to programma einai apolyta symfwno h kineitai sthn idia kateyqynsh me tis allages poy exei empneystei kai exei prowqhsei, sto xwro ths Aytodioikhshs. Giati, h Kybernhsh anelabe tis sxetikes prwtoboylies, toso gia thn prwtobaqmia aytodioikhsh, oso kai gia th nomarxiakh aytodioikhsh. Pisteyoyme, loipon, oti oi kommatikes dynameis, oi opoies epiqymoyn oi allages aytes na isxyropoihqoyn kai na apodwsoyn, qa sterjoyn kai qa sthrijoyn toys ypochfioys, oi opoioi exoyn tis idies epaggelies. M` ayth thn ennoia mporei na pei kaneis oti yparxei aisiodojia gia to apotelesma ths eklogikhs anametrhshs thn erxomenh Kyriakh, oson afora thn katoxyrwsh aytwn twn qesmwn, thn epibebaiwsh oti exoyn ginei kthma toy ellhnikoy laoy kai to oti oi dynameis oi opoies filodojoyn na ekproswphsoyn toys topikoys plhqysmoys, tis perifereiakes kai topikes koinwnies, exoyn dexqei aytes tis metarryqmiseis poy exei eisagagei h Kybernhsh mas.

PAPAXRHSTOS: Lete oti eyelpisteite pws oi ypochfioi toy PASOK qa sthrixqoyn apo tis dynameis ekeines poy ensternizontai tis allages sthn Topikh Aytodioikhsh. Blepete eseis kamia politikh dynamh, me bash ta osa dhlwqhkan, xqes, na qelei na sthrijei aytes tis allages; Ws Kybernhsh, ennow.

REPPAS: Pisteyw oti einai diakhrygmenh h qesh twn politikwn dynamewn gyrw apo ta qemata poy aforoyn thn Aytodioikhsh. Gnwrizw poly kala oti h N. D. apoxwrhse apo th Boylh otan syzhtiotan to sygkekrimeno nomosxedio. Exei kat` epanalhch kai me diafora stelexh ths dhlwsei thn antirrhsh ths sthn prowqhsh aytwn twn qesmwn kai aytwn twn allagwn. Alla kommata exoyn taxqei yper ths apokentrwshs, ths metaforas ejoysiwn kai porwn sthn ellhnikh perifereia, prokeimenoy na antimetwpistei to ydrokefalo kratos h h isxyrh kentrikh ejoysia. Pisteyw oti einai ta kommata, ta opoia exoyme synhqisei na apokaloyme proodeytika kommata, ta opoia exoyn mia tetoia antilhch gia thn anaptyjh twn perifereiakwn qesmwn. Ayta einai stoixeia ta opoia mporeite na staqmisete gia na bgalete ta symperasmata sas. Kai mporei, pisteyw, ta stoixeia ayta na apotelesoyn ton odhgo gia th stash twn politwn thn Kyriakh.

PAPAXRHSTOS: Epeidh den moy einai poly katanohto poia einai ta kommata ayta kai poy symfwnoyn me tis ryqmiseis sxetika me thn Topikh Aytodioikhsh, alla ayto einai ena allo qema -fantazomai oti den qelete na apanthsete- qelw na sas rwthsw, loipon, gia osa grafontai shmera, symfwna me ta opoia h Kybernhsh sxediazei na politikopoihsei tis ekloges enocei toy deyteroy gyroy. Mporeite na mas dwsete ena perigramma pws mporei na ginei ayto;

REPPAS: Se mia eklogikh anametrhsh enyparxei kai to stoixeio ths politikhs antiparaqeshs. Giati, antilambaneste oti sygkroyontai antilhceis kai symperifores, oi opoies orioqetoyn kai tis kommatikes paradoxes gyrw apo toys neoys qesmoys. M` ayth thn ennoia, yparxei politiko periexomeno kai politiko nohma kai anadeiknyetai kai ena politiko mhnyma apo tis eklogikes aytes anametrhseis. Den yparxei kamia antirrhsh s` ayto. Oson afora, twra, ton isxyrismo sas oti apofeygw na dwsw kapoia apanthsh sto erwthma poia kommata aspazontai th qesh poy exei eishghqei h Kybernhsh, den exw kanena logo na apofygw th syzhthsh. Antiqetws. Gnwrizete, allwste, opws gnwrizw ki egw, oti h megalh pleiochfia twn politikwn dynamewn, alla kai h syntriptikh pleiochfia toy ellhnikoy laoy exei agkaliasei aytoys toys neoys qesmoys poy exei eisagagei h Kybernhsh gia thn perifereiakh zwh ths xwras. M` ayth thn ennoia, to eipa molis prin, mporei na pei kaneis oti ektos ths N. D. ths opoias h politikh qesh h antilhch thn opoia anadeiknyoyn ta stelexh ths einai enantion aytwn twn allagwn, oles oi alles dynameis, alla pisteyw kai h poly megalh pleiochfia twn Ellhnwn politwn, aspazontai aytes tis allages. Me kapoies apoxrwseis diaforopoihshs, an qelete, alla einai sthn kateyqynsh ths enisxyshs ths ellhnikhs ypaiqroy.

MIXAHL: Mia apo tis ermhneies twn apotelesmatwn ths Kyriakhs, thn opoia mexri stigmhs to PASOK kai h Kybernhsh den thn apodexontai, xwris na thn aporriptoyn ki olas, th syzhtoyn, einai oti ftaiei to gegonos oti oi chfoforoi metakinhqhkan apo to PASOK se kapoies perifereies -kyriws stoys megaloys dhmoys- ejaitias ths askoymenhs oikonomikhs politikhs. Eseis pisteyete oti mporoyn na ginoyn ola ayta poy mas perigracate, me tis apanthseis poy dwsate ston k. Papaxrhsto, kai na sthrixtoyn oi allages poy exete kanei, otan o Ypoyrgos Eqnikhs Oikonomias bghke kai eipe xqes oti den yparxei kamia allagh sthn kybernhtikh politikh kai epipleon, oti den mporoyme na kanoyme pisw, ayth qa einai kai ara einai monodromos gia mas;

REPPAS: H Kybernhsh ths xwras exei epilejei na askei ypeyqyna, epoikodomhtika tis politikes ths, prokeimenoy na bohqhsei th xwra na antapokriqei stis proklhseis twn kairwn. Apanthsa prin kai eipa, oti prepei na synexisoyme to ergo mas atalanteytoi, aperispastoi. Kai qa kriqoyme gia to ergo mas, otan erqei h wra -to 2000- apo ton ellhniko lao. Apo kei kai pera, epeidh kaqenas dinei th dikh toy ermhneia, nomizw oti ayto to opoio prepei na laboyme ypoch mas, einai oi polles pleyres, oi polles ptyxes oi opoies yparxoyn s` ayta ta eklogika apotelesmata. Gi' ayto einai parakindyneymeno kapoios -ayth thn wra toylaxiston- na odhghqei s' ena geniko kai teliko symperasma. Mporoyme na anaferoyme para polla paradeigmata, ta opoia apodeiknyoyn poso antifatika einai ta mhnymata ws pros to periexomeno toys. Kai egine syzhthsh ep` aytoy, para to oti den problhqhke analogws, wste na mhn epitrepetai se opoiondhpote na isopedwnei, na mhdenizei kai na dinei thn entypwsh oti to mhnyma to opoio estalh einai ena mhnyma enantion ths Kybernhshs. Kaqe allo. Den einai mhnyma enantion ths Kybernhshs. Sthn epoxh ths epikoinwnias polla mhnymata stelnontai apo polloys pros polloys alloys. To mhnyma exei polles ptyxes kai stelnetai apo toys polites pros oloys, pros ola ta kommata, pros ola ta proswpa, pros oloys toys syndyasmoys. Ayth einai h alhqeia. Milate gia thn oikonomikh politikh. Qa deite omws oti se perioxes opoy kata tekmhrio h kata thn koinh antilhch diabioyn polites poy anhkoyn sta legomena laika strwmata, exoyme ychla pososta twn syndyasmwn poy yposthrixthkan apo to PASOK kai mporw na anaferqw se tetoia paradeigmata kai para polla malista. Ayto ti shmainei; Shmainei oti den qa prepei na bgazoyme symperasmata, apokobontas, temaxizontas thn alhqeia. Prepei na doyme synolika to topio se olh thn Ellada gia na bgaloyme to teliko symperasma mas, ayto to opoio qa diamorfwqei, meta thn eklogikh anametrhsh ths erxomenhs Kyriakhs. Tote qa einai eykolo na bgaloyme ta symperasmata mas.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, faskete kai antifaskete edw pera...

REPPAS: Giati kanete aytes tis kriseis; Aytes tis kanete sthn efhmerida sas, prepei na tis kanete kai edw;

STAMATOPOYLOS: H megalh pleiochfia toy ellhnikoy laoy lete, aspazetai thn politikh sas.

REPPAS: Eipa tetoio pragma egw;

STAMATOPOYLOS: To eipate. Eipate oti h megalh pleiochfia toy ellhnikoy laoy, aspazetai thn politikh ayth sthn Topikh Aytodioikhsh. Apo poy bgainei ayto; Meta lete to 2000 qa kriqoyme.

REPPAS: Me sygxwreite para poly. Eipa gia thn politikh, gia tis allages kai tis metarryqmiseis sto xwro ths Aytodioikhshs.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Ayto apo poy bgainei;

REPPAS: Giati eida oti sth syntriptikh pleiochfia toys -me elaxistes ejaireseis- oi syndyasmoi exoyn topoqethqei yper twn newn qesmwn kai paleyoyn sto plaisio politikhs twn newn qesmwn na epikrathsoyn, kerdizontas thn chfo twn sympolitwn toys. Poly ligoi einai oi syndyasmoi ekeinoi oi opoioi exoyn ycwsei th shmaia eite toy anti-Kapodistria, eite ths allaghs pros ta pisw twn metarryqmisewn sto xwro ths Nomarxiakhs Aytodioikhshs.

Den gnwrizete oti sto xwro ths N. D. exoyn ekfrastei apoceis gia thn katarghsh ths aireths Nomarxiakhs Aytodioikhshs; Den gnwrizete oti exoyn ekfrastei apoceis gia thn katarghsh ayths ths metarryqmishs poy afora th sygkrothsh twn newn megalwn dhmwn, sto plaisio toy Programmatos Kapodistrias; Peri aytoy omilw.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Egw jerw oti apoxwrhse h N. D. -kai oxi mono- apo thn chfish, an qymamai kala.

REPPAS: Egw qymamai para poly kala.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Oxi giati lete mono h N. D.

REPPAS: Egw qymamai para poly kala, alla epeidh miloyme gia politikes qeseis kai politikes antilhceis, qymamai, alla pera apo to na qymamai gnwrizw kiolas -kai pisteyw oti pera apo to na qymaste, gnwrizete kai eseis- oti ta alla kommata exoyn topoqethqei safws yper twn allagwn poy prowqei h Kybernhsh. Isws zhtoyn enan ayjhmeno ryqmo, isws zhtoyn pio entono xrwma aytwn twn allagwn, sthn kateyqynsh pantws ths apokentrwshs. Oxi sthn kateyqynsh ths sygkentrwshs, sthn opoia kineitai mesw twn dhlwsewn twn gnwstwn toylaxiston stelexwn ths h N. D.. Kai ayth einai mia diafora.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Eipate oti to mhnyma den htan mono enantion ths Kybernhshs, alla olwn twn kommatwn.

REPPAS: Prwta ap' ola den xrhsimopoihsa ayth th lejh. Kyrie Stamatopoyle, mhn parapoieite ayta poy lew.

STAMATOPOYLOS: To mhnyma eipate, den htan mono enantion ths Kybernhshs alla...

REPPAS: Eipa th frash "enantion ths Kybernhshs"; Antiqeta, eipa oti "den einai mhnyma enantion ths Kybernhshs". Giati parapoieite ayta poy lew;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Pws to eipate, kyrie Ypoyrge;

REPPAS: Apanthsa prin s` ayto, kyrie Stamatopoyle.

KIAOS: Epeidh anaferate oti yparxei aisiodojia gia to apotelesma ths erxomenhs Kyriakhs, pws metafrazetai praktika h lejh aisiodojia; Ti prosdokate dhladh, gia na doyme thn aisiodojia apo to apotelesma ; Poio qa einai to apotelesma to aisiodojo;

REPPAS: Na epibebaiwqei ayto poy diafainetai hdh apo ta apotelesmata ths prwths Kyriakhs. To eipa prin, den to akoysate, oti oi syndyasmoi oi opoioi exoyn ayth thn kateyqynsh gia ta qemata ths Aytodioikhshs, qa epikrathsoyn. Gia na apodeixqei etsi oti to programma to opoio to PASOK exei ejaggeilei kai efarmozei, einai programma to opoio exei mia qesh epikratoysa, hgemonikh.

KIAOS: Pws metafrazetai -epeidh einai sygkekrimenoi dhmoi kai sygkekrimenes nomarxies- ayth h aisiodojia; Pws metafrazetai sthn prajh h aisiodojia; Epi paradeigmati na sas rwthsw, einai oi dhmoi Qessalonikhs, Peiraiws, Patrewn, h ypernomarxia edw, alles nomarxies, skorpia ta lew twra. Mporeite na mas peite deka dhmoys poy prosdokate na parete kai poses nomarxies, praktika;

REPPAS: Kyrie Kiao, eseis epeidh pisteyw oti kai ws proswpo exete thn apoch yper ths apokentrwshs, yper twn allagwn gia thn enisxysh ths ellhnikhs perifereias, antilambaneste oti Ellada den einai mono h Aqhna kai o Peiraias.

KIAOS: Ma, gi` ayto eipa.

REPPAS: Prosdokoyme loipon ta kalytera apotelesmata se oles tis nomarxies kai se oloys toys dhmoys poy prokeitai na diejaxqoyn ekloges thn erxomenh Kyriakh. Kai h ikanopoihsh mas qa phgasei apo to apotelesma, to opoio -ekei sthrizetai h aisiodojia mas- pisteyoyme oti qa einai tetoio, wste na exoyn epikrathsei sto megalytero ariqmo twn nomarxiwn kai twn dhmwn oi syndyasmoi kai ta proswpa, ta opoia epaggellontai aytes tis allages.

KIAOS: Pantws, ariqmo den mporeite na prosdiorisete. Den qelete. Ayto rwtaw.

REPPAS: Den exoyme kanena logo na prosdiorisoyme ariqmo. Briskomaste sto meso ths ebdomadas. Thn Kyriakh qa ginoyn oi ekloges. Opws ola ta kommata, etsi kai to PASOK anaptyssei tis dynameis toy kai tis prwtoboylies toy, prokeimenoy na enisxysei tis antilhceis kai toys syndyasmoys poy kinoyntai stis programmatikes arxes toy. Emeis -epanalambanw- exoyme thn ikanopoihsh oti oi allages tis opoies tolmhsame kai prowqhsame ws Kybernhsh, rizwnoyn, katoxyrwnontai, leitoyrgoyn kai m' ayth thn ennoia kai ayto einai ena stoixeio to opoio mas dinei ikanopoihsh.

KIAOS: An mporeite na janadiatypwsete, giati den to exw shmeiwsei swsta, poy diathrei to PASOK thn hgemonia toy. Den katalaba.

REPPAS: Eipa oti telika apodeiknyetai pws diathroyme thn programmatikh kai politikh hgemonia.

KIAOS: Poy;

REPPAS: Ayto fainetai apo to oti to programma mas gia thn Topikh Aytodioikhsh agkaliasthke apo toys perissoteroys. To eipa, allwste, prin. Apo kei kai pera, bebaiws, epeidh exei thn politikh shmasia ths kai ayth h eklogikh anametrhsh -milhsa allwste gia to politiko nohma poy exoyn oles oi eklogikes anametrhseis- mporoyme na poyme me bash toys ariqmoys poy exoyme mexri twra ypoch mas, oti to PASOK exei perissoteres nomarxies kai perissoteroys dhmoys, ayth thn wra...

KIAOS: Ap' o, ti eixe;

REPPAS: ... sto plaisio toy prwtoy gyroy kai me bash toys syndyasmoys toys opoioys yposthrije kai exoyn eklegei.

KIAOS: Kai symfwneite dhladh kai me tis ektimhseis toy k. Aygerinoy poy dhmosieyontai shmera stis efhmerides;

REPPAS: O k. Aygerinos exei kanei kapoia ektimhsh h opoia brisketai konta sthn pragmatikothta. Qa elega oti einai h orqh ektimhsh, doqentos oti o k. Aygerinos, opws plhroforoymai, exei kanei ektimhsh me anafora sto synolo toy eklogikoy swmatos sygkekrimenwn nomwn, antiqeta me alles metrhseis oi opoies aforoyn to 80% toy synoloy toy eklogikoy swmatos twn nomwn aytwn. Me ayth thn ennoia oi ektimhseis poy ekane o k. Aygerinos, mporei na pei kapoios, oti einai realistikes. Qymizw bebaiws, oti s` aytes tis ekloges chfisame gia nomarxes kai dhmarxoys. Gnwrizw oti eimaste sto meso ths qhteias mias Kybernhshs, h opoia logiko einai, na krinetai me aysthra krithria, afoy h Kybernhsh den kaqorizetai apo thn chfo toy ellhnikoy laoy. Otan to 2000 o Ellhnas poliths gnwrizei oti me thn chfo toy qa kaqorisei to poia qa einai h Kybernhsh toy topoy -elpizw oloi na eimaste edw kai na syzhtoyme ta ths politikhs- tote qa deite poia qa einai ta apotelesmata. Kai pisteyw oti qa einai apotelesmata nikhfora kai qriambeytika.

KAMPOYRGIANNH: Kyrie Ypoyrge, anejarthtws twn qesewn twn kommatwn ws pros toys neoys qesmoys gia thn Topikh Aytodioikhsh, ektimate oti einai piqano, yparxoyn endeijeis oti sto b' gyro qa antimetwpisete ena antikybernhtiko mplok dynamewn; Kai ti kanete gia na to apotrecete;

REPPAS: Qa anaptyjw ligo parapanw mia apanthsh poy edwsa prin. Milhsame gia ta mhnymata. Exei ginei pollh koybenta gyrw apo to qema twn mhnymatwn. Sas lew, loipon, oti mia tetoia topoqethsh -antikybernhtikh thn onomazete eseis, -mporei na pei kaneis oti einai antifatikh. Kai einai eteroklhth h synqesh ths. Se mia tetoia topoqethsh mporei na yparxei kapoios o opoios gia ta qemata ths Aytodioikhshs fer` eipein na einai yper toy Kapodistria kai kapoios o opoios na einai enantion toy Kapodistria. Epishs, sta qemata ths kentrikhs politikhs mporei na yparxei kapoios o opoios na einai yper ths entajhs ths xwras mas sthn ONE kai kapoios opados toy KKE, poy exei labei mia tetoia qesh, o opoios topoqeteitai enantion ths entajhs ths Ellados sthn ONE. Antilambaneste loipon, oti emeis, epeidh prepei na parameinoyme se mia politikh arxwn, mia ypeyqynh politikh, anamenoyme oti to krithrio to opoio qa xrhsimopoihqei thn erxomenh Kyriakh apo toys polites gia na epilejoyn to syndyasmo ths protimhshs toys, qa einai ena krithrio synyfasmeno me sygkekrimenes arxes kai qeseis. Den qa einai ena krithrio tyxodiwktismoy, kairoskopismoy h skopimothtas. Qa einai ena krithrio eyqynhs. Gi` ayto akribws dikaiologeitai kai ayto to aisqhma aisiodojias to opoio ejefrasa ligo prin.

FILHS: Enw milate gia ta mhnymata poy exoyn steilei oi polites pros pasa kateyqynsh, den akoyw kapoio sxolio gia ena idiaitero mhnyma, poy ekfrazetai me th megalh, istoriko rekor apoklhqhke, apoxh sto Dhmo ths Aqhnas kai me ton megalo ariqmo epishs, istoriko rekor- chfodeltiwn leykwn kai akyrwn sth Nomarxiakh Aytodioikhsh Aqhnwn kai Peiraiws.

REPPAS: Ayto epibebaiwnei ta osa eipa prin: Oti, dhladh, ta mhnymata einai pros oles tis kateyqynseis. Giati, an pragmatika den eixame akyra-leyka h eixame chfodeltia enantion twn syndyasmwn poy yposthrije to PASOK, qa mporoysate na peite oti ta mhnymata einai monoshmanta kai stelnontai se mia kateyqynsh. Twra epibebaiwnetai -opws ki eseis anagnwrizete kai xairomai poy diatypwnete ayto to erwthma- oti exoyme symperifores oi opoies deixnoyn mia apostash apo oloys toys syndyasmoys, apo ola ta proswpa. Epibebaiwnetai oti exoyme mhnymata pros oles tis kateyqynseis.

FILHS: Twra, omws, pame gia to deytero gyro, opoy antimetwpoi, idiaitera sto xwro ths Aqhnas kai toy Peiraia, einai o ypochfios o kybernhtikos kai o ypochfios ths Neas Dhmokratias, oi dyo aytoi syndyasmoi. Se aytoys toys polites, oi opoioi eixan mia stash politikh ston prwto gyro, me leyko akyro kai apoxh, ti lete eseis; Sas afora amesa to problhma gi ayto sas rwtaw.

REPPAS: Prwta ap` ola, h askhsh toy eklogikoy dikaiwmatos einai ypertato dhmokratiko kaqhkon kai ypoxrewsh. Deyteron...

FILHS: Maqhma Syntagmatikoy Dikaioy toys kanete, dhladh;

REPPAS: Me sygxwreite, alla giati me rwtate tote, afoy den qelete na labete apanthsh;

FILHS: Apanthste, alla ayto einai Syntagmatiko Dikaio, den exei nohma. Politika rwthsa.

REPPAS: Deyteron, qa prepei oi polites -kai sth sygkekrimenh periptwsh, opws kai se alles periptwseis se olh thn Ellada- na ajiologhsoyn to ergo to opoio exoyn epitelesei sto plaisio ths qhteias toys, aytoi oi opoioi shmera einai pali ypochfioi kai etyxe na exoyn thn idiothta toy Nomarxh h toy Dhmarxoy, kata thn prohgoymenh periodo. Pisteyoyme oti sth sygkekrimenh perifereia sthn opoia anafereste einai para poly qetiko to ergo ths Nomarxiakhs Aytodioikhshs. Me ayth thn ennoia den mporei na agnohqei. Kai triton, qa prepei oi polites-eklogeis na staqmisoyn, metajy twn allwn, kai to oti oi anqrwpoi aytoi oi opoioi krinontai me thn chfo toys einai foreis apocewn kai politikwn poy kinoyntai se mia sygkekrimenh kateyqynsh: ths metaforas armodiothtwn kai ejoysiwn apo to kratos stoys qesmoys ths Aytodioikhshs. Kai ayto prepei, epishs, na epikrothqei. Ayta einai ta stoixeia ta opoia pisteyw prepei na xrhsimopoihqoyn ws krithria. Opws, epishs kai to gegonos oti yparxei mia diafora metajy twn ypochfiwn ths mias h kai ths allhs pleyras. Kai h diafora ayth pistwnetai qetika stoys ypochfioys ths sygkekrimenhs pleyras kai en prokeimenw ston k. Koyloymph, ton k. Eystaqiadh kai to k. Sarafogloy, afoy qelete na milhsoyme etsi gia thn kaloymenh ypernomarxia Aqhna-Peiraia.

FILHS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, otan yparxoyn 10-15 chfodeltia ston prwto gyro, xiliades polites -180 xiliades nomizw oti einai sthn Aqhna kai ston Peiraia- epilegoyn na chfisoyn leyko h akyro, ti einai ekeino poy sas dhmioyrgei aisiodojia, oti me dyo chfodeltia qa epilejoyn ena apo ta dyo;

REPPAS: Qa hqela ayto poy rwtate na to apeyqynete pros ola ta kommata kai apo koinoy na problhmatistoyme gia th sxesh ths politikhs me toys polites: an, dhladh, h politikh diathrei thn aiglh kai thn ajiopistia poy eixe kapote. Apo kei kai pera pisteyw oti epeidh isws anemenan oti oi ekloges qa kriqoyn telika sto deytero gyro, epefylajan ston eayto toys to dikaiwma na ekfrasoyn th dysareskeia toys me ayto ton tropo ston prwto gyro kai na proselqoyn sto deytero gyro, pairnontas sygkekrimenh, pleon, qesh gia ta krinomena proswpa kai toys syndyasmoys. Pisteyw oti ta stoixeia ayta, ta opoia diaforopoioyn toys ypochfioys, den mporei na agnohqoyn kai ayta qa apotelesoyn to enaysma, wste kapoioi na staqmisoyn thn eyqynh poy exoyn kai na chfisoyn', epilegontas proswpa kai programmata. Na mhn meinoyn ametoxoi kai oydeteroi, afoy yparxei ayth h diafora metajy twn ypochfiwn, h opoia einai emfanhs kai den mporoyn kai oi idioi oi eklogeis na thn agnohsoyn. Prepei na th laboyn ypoch toys.

FILHS: Anaferqhke o k. Kiaos sta apotelesmata poy exei bgalei o k. Aygerinos. Paraplhsia apotelesmata exoyn bgalei kai alloi foreis. H eikona poy dinetai einai mia kamch ths dynamhs toy PASOK panelladika, ths tajhs toy 1,5% kai mia anodo ths dynamhs ths Neas Dhmokratias apo 1,5% ews 2,5% panelladika, mia staqerothta h kai anodos twn mikroterwn kommatwn. Qa hqela na mas kanete ena sxolio, giati edw pragmati yparxei mia posotikh apotimhsh toy mhnymatos, den einai en genei mhnyma.

REPPAS: Milhsa prin kai epanerxomai. Eimaste sto meson ths qhteias ths Kybernhshs. O chfoforos twn dhmotikwn kai nomarxiakwn eklogwn gnwrizei oti h chfos toy den kaqorizei th synexish ths qhteias ths Kybernhshs h thn anatroph ths. Exei, loipon, ayth thn polyteleia, na chfizei lambanontas ypoch toy ayto to dedomeno. To 2000, poy h chfos krinei ayth thn idia thn Kybernhsh, krinei ta proswpa ths kentrikhs politikhs ejoysias, pisteyoyme oti to apotelesma qa einai nikhforo kai qriambeytiko. To eipa kai prin. Epishs, ayth thn wra, an dexqoyme -giati den einai apotelesma poy exei prokycei apo ekloges, einai apotelesma mias metrhshs, mias ereynas, mias anagwghs poy ginetai apo kapoioys eidikoys- oti etsi exoyn ta pragmata, qa prepei na pw oti epibebaiwnetai, pleon, pws oles aytes oi kathgories poy diatypwnontai enantion ths Kybernhshs den eystaqoyn. Giati apodeiknyetai pws yparxei mia isorropia sto politiko fasma, oti ta kommata briskontai poly konta stis dynameis poy eixan kerdisei stis ekloges toy 1996. Ara olh ayth h filologia peri "katarreyshs ths Kybernhshs", peri "antistrofhs metrhshs", peri "adynamias toy PASOK na synexisei na kyberna", den antapokrinetai sthn pragmatikothta. Ayto apodeiknyetai. Exw th gnwmh, loipon, oti an labete ypoch sas ayta ta dyo stoixeia, qa mporeite eykola na bgalete symperasmata, ta opoia, bebaiws, sas kalw na ta bgalete meta to deytero gyro, ths erxomenhs Kyriakhs.

LEONTOPOYLOS: Dexqhke o Prwqypoyrgos, to brady ths Kyriakhs, oti yparxei ena genikotero politiko mhnyma kai otan enas politikos leei "yparxei genikotero mhnyma" den ennoei mono to qetiko. Epishs, einai swsto to epixeirhma oti h eikona twn apotelesmatwn einai antifatikh afoy yparxei mia epifainomenh -as to poyme etsi- htta toy PASOK, alloy omws -epanw ston Ebro sth Drama kai sth Qrakh- yparxei mia syntribh ths N. D. Efoson dexeste oti yparxei ayto to mhnyma kai den sxetizetai profanws me kaqara qemata aytodioikhtikhs politikhs kai lete oti "o laos, epikrothse etsi tis allages poy kaname", skepteste, yparxoyn skeceis twra s` ayto to mesodiasthma h qa yparjoyn meta to deytero gyro, gia diorqwtikes kinhseis, eite ston tomea ths oikonomikhs politikhs, xwris ayto na anatrepei to basiko stoxo ths ONE, eite sth dhmosia eikona ths Kybernhshs, giati exei graftei oti h kakh eikona poy paroysiazoyn orismenoi ypoyrgoi, opws o Dhmosias Tajhs, o Ygeias, o Gewrgias k. a. yparxoyn sthn politikh hgesia, sthn kommatikh hgesia tetoies skeceis;

REPPAS: Exoyme epilejei to dromo ths paragwghs ergoy kai oxi ths dhmioyrgias entypwsewn. Qa parameinoyme s` ayth thn kateyqynsh. H Kybernhsh einai proshlwmenh sto na petyxei toys stoxoys ths, prokeimenoy na odhghsei thn Ellada se mia pio isxyrh qesh sth dieqnh koinothta. Oi feygalees kai efhmeres entypwseis den mas diafeygoyn, alla den kaqorizoyn thn politikh mas. Ayto prepei na einai safes. Me aformh to erwthma sas moy dinete thn eykairia na pw, epeidh poly syzhthsh ginetai gia orismena proswpa, gia orismenes perioxes, oti prepei na doyme olh thn Ellada, na doyme ola ta proswpa kai oles tis perioxes. Giati einai poly dyskolo na bgalei kaneis asfales symperasma temaxizontas thn alhqeia. Gnwrizete oti yparxei o Dhmos twn Anw Liosiwn. O k. Papadhmas eklexqhke me pososto 75%. O k. Papadhmas diaxeirizetai dyskola qemata. To qema twn aqigganwn, to qema twn skoypidiwn. To xeimwna gnwrizete poia kritikh askhqhke me thn perifhmh limnh sta Liosia. Ki omws o k. Papadhmas, o opoios sthrixqhke apo to PASOK, sygkentrwse ena pososto, to opoio mporei na dinei thn entypwsh enos monokommatikoy kratoys, alla apodeiknyei th megalh empistosynh twn sympolitwn toy. Ayto ti shmainei mia kai milate gia thn oikonomikh politikh ths Kybernhshs, otan tetoia ychla pososta...

MIXAHL: Den einai to kalytero paradeigma, k. Ypoyrge.

REPPAS:... sygkentrwnontai yper twn ypochfiwn poy sthrizontai apo to PASOK, se perioxes opoy katoikoyn ta legomena laika strwmata; Qelete na pame sth B' Peiraia na milhsoyme gia ta pososta; Ara, loipon, qa prepei ki emeis na eimaste sygkrathmenoi -ayto epilejame na kanoyme- na perimenoyme thn oloklhrwsh twn eklogwn kai tote kanontas tis anagwges, qa mporoyme na bgaloyme symperasmata. Den xreiazetai na epidiwkoyme twra th dhmioyrgia entypwsewn gia logoys profaneis.

FILHS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, syggnwmh, alla eipate twra kati kai mas kentrizete: Dhladh, epikrotei h Kybernhsh ton tropo me ton opoio xeirizetai o k. Papadhmas to qema twn tsigganwn; O pio ratsistikos tropos einai. Ton epikroteite;

REPPAS: Kyrie Filh, prwton, h Kybernhsh sthrizetai sto PASOK kai to PASOK gnwrizete oti exei sthrijei thn ypochfiothta toy k. Papadhma. Kai deyteron kai dedomeno, oi polites toy sygkekrimenoy Dhmoy edwsan ena apotelesma qriamboy me pososto 75% ston k. Papadhma.

FILHS: Ti shmainei ayto;

REPPAS: H kentrikh politikh gia ta qemata sta opoia anafereste gnwrizete poia einai. H Kybernhsh exei sygkekrimenes qeseis gia ola ayta ta qemata.

SOYRMELIDHS: Dexetai eishghseis gia anasxhmatismo o Prwqypoyrgos;

REPPAS: Den exei apasxolhsei ton Prwqypoyrgo h thn Kybernhsh tetoio qema.

Sas eyxaristw poly.

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