Greek Government Press Briefing, 98-01-30

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

YPOYRGEIO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS

Aqhna, 30.1.1998

H ENHMERWSH TWN POLITIKWN SYNTAKTWN KAI TWN ANTAPOKRITWN JENOY TYPOY APO TON YPOYRGO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS KAI KYBERNHTIKO EKPROSWPO DHMHTRH REPPA

Geia sas.

* Shmera to prwi o Prwqypoyrgos dexqhke ton Proedro toy Eyrwpaikoy Koinoboylioy, ton k. Romples. Syzhthsan qemata gia th leitoyrgia toy Eyrw-koinoboylioy kai tis diadikasies enopoihshs ths Eyrwphs. O k. Shmiths enhmerwse ton jeno epishmo paragonta, gia ta eqnika mas qemata, gia tis ejelijeis sthn perioxh. Einai gnwsto oti pantote h Ellada, sto plaisio twn syzhthsewn poy ginontai sthn Eyrwpaikh Enwsh, parexei yposthrijh sto Eyrwpaiko Koinoboylio kai panta pairnei qesh yper ths dieyrynshs twn ejoysiwn toy.

* Synedriase h Kybernhtikh Epitroph. Sth synedriash ayth egine mia episkophsh toy kybernhtikoy ergoy, enas elegxos ths proodoy, oson afora thn efarmogh twn diaforwn apofasewn poy exoyme labei kata kairoys. Kai epishs, proxwrhsame se enan politiko sxediasmo, me bash ta xronika shmeia ta opoia apoteloyn sygkekrimenes kai shmantikes politikes orioqethseis, opws einai oi Nomarxiakes kai oi Dhmotikes Ekloges.

-Yparxoyn ypoxrewseis gia thn Kybernhsh, sto eswteriko kai to ejwteriko, gia tis opoies prepei na proetoimastoyme, wste na antapokriqoyme me ton kalytero tropo.

-Yparxei h Diaskech ths Eyrwpaikhs Enwshs poy qa ginei stis 12 Martioy.

-To Maio qa exoyme th Synodo Koryfhs poy qa asxolhqei me ta qemata ths Oikonomikhs kai Nomismatikhs Enwshs.

-Exoyme mprosta mas thn Proedria ths Dytikoeyrwpaikhs Enwshs kai toy Symboylioy ths Eyrwphs.

-Sto eswteriko ths xwras, qa prepei to kybernhtiko ergo, mexri to kalokairi, na exei oloklhrwqei -se sxesh me toys sxediasmoys poy exoyme kanei- prokeimenoy stis Nomarxiakes kai Dhmotikes Ekloges o ellhnikos laos na exei mia eikona gia to ergo ayto.

H syzhthsh sthn K.E. aforoyse diaforoys tomeis ths kybernhtikhs drashs.

-Oson afora tis ellhnotoyrkikes sxeseis parathrhqhke oti yparxei ayth h politikh reystothta sthn Toyrkia. Emeis epiqymoyme oi ejelijeis sthn Toyrkia na odhghsoyn sth dhmioyrgia enos topioy poy qa diakrinetai gia th staqerothta kai qa parexei th dynatothta gia ypeyqynh antimetwpish twn qematwn. H qesh mas gia th synexish ths diadikasias ths epikoinwnias-dialogoy, mesw empeirognwmonwn, paramenei h idia. Kai h E.E. symfwnei oti pragmati prepei na ejelixqei aytos o dialogos mesw twn empeirognwmonwn. H Toyrkia, opws gnwrizete, arneitai na symmetasxei, epeidh akribws exei labei th qesh na mhn symmetexei se opoiesdhpote diadikasies, oi opoies anaptyssontai me prwtoboylia ths E.E. Kai gia to qema ths Diaskechs ths Eyrwpaikhs Enwshs, epiqymoyme th symmetoxh ths Toyrkias s' ayth. H Toyrkia exei dhlwsei -mexri twra toylaxiston, ayth einai h qesh ths- oti endiaferetai na einai ypochfia pros entajh xwra kai gi' ayto den qa parei meros sth Diaskech. Elpizoyme na allajei qesh.

-Oson afora to Kypriako, epikeintai oi ekloges sthn Kypro. Meta thn anadeijh ths neas kybernhshs, anamenontai oi ejaggelqeises prwtoboylies, gia thn antimetwpish toy Kypriakoy problhmatos.

-Oson afora thn amyna ths xwras, apofasisame oti to ejoplistiko programma prepei na proxwrhsei me bash ton arxiko sxediasmo. Gia ta qemata ayta qa sygklhqei, isws, thn epomenh periodo Kybernhtiko Organo. Peran twn eqnikwn anagkwn poy kalyptontai me thn proodo toy ejoplistikoy programmatos, eipame oti prepei na ajiopoihsoyme ayth th diadikasia, prokeimenoy na ejasfalisoyme, mesw oikonomikwn symmaxiwn h diplwmatikwn prwtoboyliwn poy qa analaboyme, kai ofelh se alloys tomeis.

-Sto eswteriko ths xwras -mia kai milhsame gia tis Nomarxiakes kai Dhmotikes Ekloges- einai hdh se ejelijh o sxediasmos poy exoyme kanei gia th synenwsh Dhmwn kai Koinothtwn, o gnwstos sas "Kapodistrias". Diakosioi ebdomhnta episthmones, epilegentes apo ta Kentra Katartishs, meletoyn ta problhmata twn newn organismwn gia na proteinoyn egkairws lyseis. Syntomotata ena episthmoniko, stelexiako dynamiko 2.500 anqrwpwn, qa analabei na asxolhqei me ta problhmata toy kaqe Dhmoy xwrista, katanemhmeno se omades, prokeimenoy na proteinei tekmhriwmenes kai efiktes lyseis gia thn antimetwpish toys.

-Epishs, syzhthsame gia ta qemata ths oikonomias. H entajh mas sthn ONE paramenei stoxos koryfaias shmasias gia th xwra mas. Pisteyoyme oti, opws mexri twra me epityxia, etsi, an paroysiastei analogh piesh kai sto mellon, qa thn antimetwpisoyme. Kai milw gia pieseis sto eqniko nomisma. Den fainontai ston orizonta, toylaxiston apo ta stoixeia ta opoia exoyme ypoch mas, ws piqanes ayth thn wra tetoies pieseis. Eimaste omws etoimoi -ki ayto to mhnyma qeloyme na steiloyme- na antimetwpisoyme ola ta endexomena.

-Yparxei h kinhtopoihsh omadwn, se diafores perioxes ths xwras. Ta problhmata ta opoia antimetwpizoyn, mas einai gnwsta. H Kybernhsh eyaisqhtopoieitai. Epiqymei mesw toy dialogoy twn omadwn poy diekdikoyn th lysh aithmatwn toys, me thn politikh hgesia toy armodioy Ypoyrgeioy, na antimetwpizontai kai na lynontai ta problhmata ayta. Pisteyoyme pws h antiparaqesh den mporei na prosferei lyseis. Antiqeta apobainei se baros olwn.

-Telos, egine logos gia thn anadeijh toy kybernhtikoy ergoy. Gia mia akomh fora milhsame gia th diastash poy yparxei anamesa sto ploysio kybernhtiko "einai" kai to ligotero -se sxesh me to "einai"- elkystiko kybernhtiko "fainesqai". Pisteyoyme oti to mhnyma ths koinhs prospaqeias, ths allhleggyas stashs, ths apo koinoy symporeyshs gia thn antimetwpish twn problhmatwn -giati ayto apotelei thn apostolh poy aneqese o ellhnikos laos sthn Kybernhsh kai to komma mas- einai ena mhnyma to opoio qa exei apodektes oloys ekeinoys poy prepei na to laboyn, na to ensternistoyn kai na to metoysiwsoyn se kanona symperiforas, se kanona kaqhmerinhs politikhs praktikhs.

Ayta se poly genikes grammes. Akoyw tis erwthseis sas.

KIAOS: Pote arxise h synedriash kai ti wra teleiwse;

REPPAS: Prepei na sas pw oti egw symmeteixa apo ena shmeio kai meta, dioti eprepe na apanthsw sth Boylh, se erwthseis synadelfwn boyleytwn. Nomizw oti jekinhse ligo meta tis 10.30 kai teleiwse peripoy sth 1.30.

KIAOS: Treis wres dhladh.

REPPAS: Nai, peripoy treis wres.

KIAOS: Apontes eixe h htan oloi parontes;

REPPAS: Htan ola ta melh ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs.

KIAOS: Ektos twn melwn proshlqan ki alloi Ypoyrgoi;

REPPAS: Ektos twn melwn ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs, hmoyn parwn egw, htan parontes o k. Pasxalidhs, o k. Gianitshs, oikonomikos symboylos toy Prwqypoyrgoy, o k. Qemelhs kai o k. Kosmidhs bebaia, opws panta, ws grammateas toy Ypoyrgikoy Symboylioy.

KIAOS: H diadikasia poy akoloyqhqhke, dhladh, sthn hmerhsia diatajh htan grammeno qema geniko, opws eipate sthn arxh ...

REPPAS: H prosklhsh h opoia apeyqynotan onomastika sta melh ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs kai stoys alloys stoys opoioys anaferqhka, mas kaloyse na laboyme meros se mia synedriash, ths opoias to qema htan "h poreia toy kybernhtikoy ergoy". Aytos htan o titlos. Mporw na th qesw sth diaqesh sas thn prosklhsh an qelete.

KIAOS: Aneptyxqhsan apoceis kai kritikh gia thn poreia toy kybernhtikoy ergoy kai gia to an prepei na einai etsi h alliws h kybernhtikh politikh;

REPPAS: Asfalws, stis synedriaseis den syzhtoyme gia na aponemoyme epaino ston eayto mas. Syzhtoyme gia na epishmainoyme tis kaqysterhseis kai tis adynamies prokeimenoy na beltiwnoyme to ergo mas. Qa elega oti egine mia anafora sta shmantikotera qemata ths kybernhtikhs politikhs. Akroqigws anaferqhkan kapoia qemata, me perissoteres leptomereies kapoia alla. Opws ta qemata ejwterikhs politikhs fer' eipein, gia ta opoia sas eipa kapoia kentrika stoixeia ayths ths syzhthshs. Ayto htan to pneyma to opoio epikrathse.

KIAOS: An mporeite na prosdiorisete tomeis ths kybernhtikhs politikhs kai ths poreias toy kybernhtikoy ergoy, oi opoioi synanthsan perissotero, qa elega, thn kritikh symfwna me ayto poy eipate kai apo poioys sygkekrimena Ypoyrgoys;

REPPAS: Antilambaneste pws den einai dynaton na katasthsoyme dhmosies tis synedriaseis aytes. H enhmerwsh poy sas edwsa, anaferetai se ola ta qemata poy eqighsan kai anaferqhka me enan tetoio tropo o opoios epanalambanw oti kalyptei thn anagkh ths enhmerwshs. An qelete gia kapoio qema na qesete kapoia erwthsh, eyxaristws. Eimai sth diaqesh sas. Mporw omws na pw -mia kai me qetete apenanti s' ayton ton peirasmo- oti oloi epekrinan thn epikoinwniakh politikh, h opoia akoloyqeitai. Oloi mhdenos ejairoymenoy. Kai oloi dexqhkame oti pragmati yparxei megalh diastash metajy toy "einai" kai toy "fainesqai" toy kybernhtikoy ergoy.

KIAOS: Ayto einai eykolo kai se sas na to peite, dioti fortwneste, qelete den qelete ...

REPPAS: To lew gia na mh qewrhqei oti prospaqoyme na apokrycoyme ena meros ths syzhthshs ayths. Asfalws, ayto einai mia pragmatikothta.

KIAOS: Oxi, egw den to dexomai ayto.

ELENOPOYLOS: Kai ektimame oti bazete to sthqos sas mprosta.

KIAOS: Ayto na legetai. Alla, epi paradeigmati, epishmanqhke, as poyme, h poreia toy kybernhtikoy ergoy ston tomea ths oikonomias kai me toys xeirismoys poy akoloyqoyntai h oxi kai epishmanqhkan trwta h epishmanqhkan shmeia poy mporoyn na beltiwqoyn h oxi s' ayton ton tomea;

REPPAS: Egine anafora stis epityxies poy eixame kai anafora stoys gnwstoys deiktes oi opoioi martyroyn thn proodo poy exoyme epitelesei. Egine sygkekrimenh anafora, enocei ths syzhthshs gia th sygkekrimenh diatajh poy afora thn allagh toy genikoy kanonismoy proswpikoy se sygkekrimenes epixeirhseis toy Dhmosioy. Eipwqhke oti h katastash poy exei dhmioyrghqei stis epixeirhseis aytes, xrhzei ameshs antimetwpishs. Den einai dynaton na menoyme apaqeis. Qa prepei na epidiwjoyme, bebaiws, mesa apo diadikasies synaineshs na antimetwpisoyme ta problhmata twn epixeirhsewn toy Dhmosioy, erxomenoi se synennohsh me toys ergazomenoys, me ta syndikata poy toys ekproswpoyn. Den qa prepei, omws, na mas diafeygei oti o apodekths twn yphresiwn aytwn twn epixeirhsewn, poy einai o poliths, prepei na apotelei ton kyrio skopo, prokeimenoy aytos na yphreteitai me thn politikh mas. M' ayth thn ennoia, pisteyoyme oti h politikh thn opoia akoloyqoyme stoys tomeis aytoys, einai h endedeigmenh politikh. Den eipwqhke kati diaforetiko. Einai h koinh antilhch, oti prepei na proxwrhsoyme se tomes kai allages.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Poia problhmata sth dietia -oikonomika, ejwterika, eqnika- epelyse h Kybernhsh, ston apologismo poy kanate;

REPPAS: Moy dinete th xara na kanw mia apariqmhsh olwn twn epityxiwn ths Kybernhshs.

MIXAHL: Den qeloyme, "eleos"!

STAMATOPOYLOS: Poia epelyse; Allo apariqmhsh kai allo poia epelyse.

REPPAS: Exoyme hdh proseggisei para poly, toys stoxoys poy eixame qesei me to programma sygklishs. Ayth einai mia megalh epityxia. Qa elega oti petyxame sxedon to akatorqwto. Ayto to paradexontai kai oikonomikoi kykloi kai dieqneis organismoi. Nomizw, loipon, oti den prepei na parablepete ayth thn proodo poy epiteleitai s' aytoys toys tomeis. Sta eqnika qemata: Exoyme mia enisxysh ths paroysias ths Elladas sthn Eyrwpaikh Enwsh. Einai enas xwros o opoios mas endiaferei idiaitera, afoy eimaste melos ayths ths megalhs Enwshs. Qa epityxoyme na eimaste ayrio sthn Oikonomikh kai Nomismatikh Enwsh. Ayto isodynamei, qa elega, me mia nea entajh pleon, se ena dieqnh organismo toy opoioy ta krithria kai oi prodiagrafes einai poly pio aysthra apo ayta poy eixe h EOK tote, otan entaxqhkame gia prwth fora. Ayto kanei th nea entajh poly pio dyskolo egxeirhma. Pisteyoyme oti qa to epityxoyme. Eimaste, loipon, sth swsth kateyqynsh. Exoyme tis apofaseis poy exoyn lhfqei se Synodoys twn organwn ths E.E. gia tis eyrwtoyrkikes sxeseis, oi opoies ws politiko plaisio aphxoyn tis arxes ths ejwterikhs politikhs mas, oson afora tis ellhnotoyrkikes sxeseis. Exoyme thn antimetwpish, oson afora eswterika qemata, problhmatwn poy apasxoloyn megales omades toy ellhnikoy plhqysmoy, dinontas idiaiterh emfash -mesw twn eidikwn programmatwn- sthn antimetwpish ths anergias, th dhmioyrgia enos istoy koinwnikhs prostasias, gia na bohqhsoyme toys pio adynamoys, toys asqenesteroys oikonomika kai koinwnika.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Egw den rwthsa gia ta "qa". Poia, rwthsa. Ti ekane;

REPPAS: Ola ayta einai pragmatikothta.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Qa mpoyme sthn ONE, "qa".Qa lysoyme thn apergia, "qa".

REPPAS: Ma, giati qa mpoyme; Giati exoyme petyxei ayto to bhma...

STAMATOPOYLOS: Den exete petyxei. "Qa" petyxete.

REPPAS: Ayth einai h dikh sas apoch. Me eixate rwthsei kapote an to teliko keimeno ths Diakybernhtikhs problepei ayth th diatajh, thn opoia eixame eishghqei prwtoi emeis. Otan dhmosieyqhke to keimeno kai eidate oti symperilambanetai ayth h diatajh den me janarwthsate. Giati mexri tote, peripoy deixnate oti den pisteyate, oti einai dynaton na symperilhfqei sto keimeno ths Diakybernhtikhs ayth h diatajh, ayth h prosqhkh. Kai omws, symperielhfqh. Kai jerete oti ayto to qema apotelese antikeimeno syzhthsewn gia para poly kairo sto eswteriko ths xwras, meta thn prwth Synodo Koryfhs ths Diakybernhtikhs, sto Torino ths Italias. Ara, loipon, an qeloyme na eimaste antikeimenikoi, prepei na gnwrizoyme oti dipla sta problhmata, ta opoia yparxoyn kai qa yparxoyn kai einai polla kai kapoia exoyn kai ojytath morfh kai mas apasxoloyn, yparxoyn kai epityxies. Exoyme na paroysiasoyme ena ergo.

STAMATOPOYLOS: H Eyrwpaikh Enwsh eggyatai ta synora ths xwras;

REPPAS: Qelete na syzhthsoyme twra ti akribws symbainei;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Rwtaw, an eggyatai oti ta synora ths xwras einai kai synora ths E.E.;

REPPAS: Ta synora ths xwras ta yperaspizetai o ellhnikos laos, idiaiterws oi Enoples Dynameis, poy briskontai se ychlo epipedo apotreptikhs ikanothtas. Epiprosqetws, oles aytes oi qeseis poy se dieqneis organismoys symperilambanontai sta ntokoymenta toys h ekfrazontai me diaforoys tropoys, bohqoyn se ayth thn kateyqynsh. Giati, an den eixan thn ajia, poy lew egw oti exoyn, tote den dikaiologeitai to diko sas endiaferon, na qetete kai na janaqetete ayta ta qemata, ws shmantika. Eseis ta qetete kai zhtate apanthseis, apaitwntas apo thn Kybernhsh na kanei ta analoga bhmata. Otan exete aytes tis apanthseis, qewreite oti den einai shmantika ta qemata. Ti apo ta dyo symbainei;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Den eida na syzhthsete kaqoloy gia toys Olympiakoys Agwnes. Den sas apasxolei;

REPPAS: Den syzhthsame gia toys Olympiakoys Agwnes. Den htan antikeimeno ths syzhthshs. H diadikasia ayth, gnwrizete oti analhfqhke pleon apo thn Organwtikh Epitroph. Pisteyoyme oti me poly qetiko tropo qa prowqhqoyn kai s' ayto ton tomea ta qemata.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Dhladh den sas apasxolei..

REPPAS: Bgazete to symperasma oti den mas apasxolei; Asfalws, mas apasxolei. Gi' ayto orisame ayth thn Organwtikh Epitroph. Giati sas akoyw na ciqyrizete, "ara, den sas apasxolei h Olympiada". Ayto to symperasma bgalate apo thn apanthsh poy edwsa;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Edw exei ginei xamos me toys Olympiakoys Agwnes kai eseis den to syzhtate san ena qema kybernhtiko;

REPPAS: Asfalws to syzhtame, alla, me ton tropo kai sto xrono poy prepei na ginetai ayth h syzhthsh.

KACAMPELHS: Eipate sthn eisagwgh sas gia apodektes toy mhnymatos. Poioys ennoeite; Toys Ypoyrgoys;

REPPAS: Oxi bebaia toys Ypoyrgoys. Oi Ypoyrgoi, gnwrizete poly kala, oti einai melh toy kybernhtikoy sxhmatos kai symbaloyn s' ayth thn prospaqeia gia thn anadeijh toy kybernhtikoy ergoy.

KACAMPELHS: Eipate gia to ejoplistiko programma, oti qa yparjei synedriash kybernhtikoy organoy kai qa kaqorisei ti; Kai to rwtaw ayto giati symfwna me plhrofories poy dhmosieyqhkan kai den eida kamia diaceysh, antidrash, yparxei mia emplokh. Fainetai oti o Prwqypoyrgos, h Kybernhsh emplekei to ejoplistiko kai toys xeirismoys sto ejoplistiko me tis eswkommatikes isorropies kai mia allagh taktikhs apenanti ston k. Tsoxatzopoylo, poy apo symmaxos ginetai exqros, k.l.p. Peite mas, loipon, ti qa syzhthsete epiteloys;

REPPAS: Den katalabainw se poio qema anafereste h se poia dhmosieymata. An qelete na rwthsete pio sygkekrimena, eyxaristws na kanw ena sxolio. Ayto to opoio mporw na pw einai oti, to ejoplistiko programma, pisteyoyme oti prepei na ejelixqei stoys xronoys poy exoyme apofasisei. Eipame oti einai piqano na synedriasei kai pali ena kybernhtiko organo, to KYSEA isws, prokeimenoy na parakoloyqhsei ayth th diadikasia, na ektimhsei thn proodo poy exoyme kanei kai na labei kapoies apofaseis, wste an kati prepei na beltiwsoyme, na to kanoyme ki ayto. Sta dhmosieymata gia ta opoia anafereste, den exw ypoch moy kati sygkekrimeno, alla, mporw na kanw ena geniko sxolio, an qelete. Qelete na moy peite kati sygkekrimeno;

KACAMPELHS: Yphrje xqesino prwtoselido dhmosieyma, symfwna me to opoio o Prwqypoyrgos allazontas ta stoixeia poy edwse ston Ypoyrgo Eqnikhs Amynhs, gia eswkommatikoys logoys, allazei kai toys xeirismoys gia ta ejoplistika.

REPPAS: Malista. Anafereste sto dhmosieyma ths "Kaqhmerinhs", opws antilambanomai, etsi opws to ejeidikeysate. Den antapokrinetai sthn alhqeia. O Prwqypoyrgos kai o k. Tsoxatzopoylos den einai symmaxoi. Einai synergates edw kai para polla xronia. Exoyn mia koinh, parallhlh poreia. Kai h qhteia toy k. Tsoxatzopoyloy sto Ypoyrgeio Eqnikhs Amynas, nomizw oti den afhnei periqwria na proklhqoyn tetoioy eidoys kritikes. O Prwqypoyrgos prosblepei se ayth thn prospaqeia poy kanei o k. Tsoxatzopoylos ws Ypoyrgos Eqnikhs Amynas, gia th qwrakish ths xwras mas kai th dhmioyrgia newn synqhkwn, prokeimenoy kai s' ayto tonn tomea h Ellada, ta epomena xronia, na einai mia isxyrh Ellada.

MIXAHL: Egw qelw na sas rwthsw dyo pragmata. To prwto einai, synexeia aytoy akribws poy eipate. To gegonos oti o k. Tsoxatzopoylos exei ekfrasei dhmosiws antirrhseis gia tis ejelijeis sth Neolaia PASOK, sas apasxolei kai ti sxolio exete na kanete gi' ayto;

REPPAS: Ayto einai ena qema me to opoio asxoloyntai ta kommatika organa. Einai ena eswkommatiko zhthma kai gnwrizete poly kala oti oi ypeyqynoi to xeirizontai me tetoio tropo, wste na yparjei h kalyterh dynath lysh.

MIXAHL: To deytero poy hqela na rwthsw einai: milhsate sth Kybernhtikh Epitroph gia episkophsh toy kybernhtikoy ergoy, alla kai gia enan politiko sxediasmo sygkekrimeno. Kapoies prwtoboylies, kapoies kainoyrgies politikes poy skepteste na ejaggeilete h poy apofasisate, yparxoyn kai poies einai;

REPPAS: Yparxei to programma mas kai s' ayto symperilambanontai ola. Apla, qa synexisoyme ayth thn prospaqeia poy kanoyme, me bash tis ierarxhseis kai tis proteraiothtes poy hdh exoyme kaqorisei, edw kai para poly kairo.

MIXAHL: Giati to syndyasate kai me tis nomarxiakes ekloges...

REPPAS: Giati kata kairoys ta kybernhtika organa asxoloyntai m' ayth th genikh qewrhsh ths ejelijhs toy kybernhtikoy ergoy. Einai kati to opoio egine kai shmera. Den einai ena politiko xroniko shmeio h diejagwgh twn topikwn eklogwn, to opoio se megalo baqmo prepei na laboyme ypoch mas; Bebaiws, prepei na to laboyme ypoch mas.

MIXAHL: Poies proteraiothtes toy kybernhtikoy ergoy, anadeiknyete eseis gia toys epomenoys mhnes kai se poioys tomeis;

REPPAS: Se oloys toys tomeis yparxoyn ena-dyo-tria qemata ta opoia einai ta koryfaia. Kai ston tomea ths ejwterikhs politikhs kai ston tomea ths oikonomias kai ston tomea ths koinwnikhs politikhs. Qelete na sas pw se kaqe tomea ti einai ayto to opoio apotelei thn proteraiothta;

MIXAHL: Se poioys tomeis;

REPPAS: Se oloys toys tomeis. Einai dynaton mia Kybernhsh na pei oti asxoloymai mono me ta qemata koinwnikhs politikhs kai den asxoloymai me thn ejwterikh politikh;

MIXAHL: Allh barythta exoyn oi ellhnotoyrkikes sxeseis, allh barythta exei h sygklish ths oikonomias kai allh barythta exei h ryqmish.....

REPPAS: Ola exoyn thn idia barythta, analogws twn synqhkwn poy kaqe fora epikratoyn. Ena qema poy kapoia stigmh, logw twn synqhkwn poy epikratoyn, den fainetai na apotelei antikeimeno proteraiothtas ws pros thn apasxolhsh h th sygkentrwsh endiaferontos ths Kybernhshs kai ths Koinhs Gnwmhs, kapoia allh stigmh, ek twn pragmatwn, kaqistatai kyriarxo zhthma. H Kybernhsh asxoleitai me ola ta qemata.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Sto plaisio ths epikoinwniakhs politikhs ths Kybernhshs, synarmodia Ypoyrgeia, xqes kai proxqes, dieneiman katalogoys, me ayto poy onomazoyn pronomia twn ergazomenwn stis DEKO. Qelw ena sxolio sas, gia to sxolio ths GSEE, ep' ayths ths praktikhs, poy th xarakthrise gkempelismo kai epishs qa hqela na rwthsw an h Kybernhsh protiqetai na ekdwsei katalogo me to poso kostizoyn ston ellhniko lao ta dieyqynonta stelexh, oi grammateis kai oi diaforoi alloi stis dhmosies epixeirhseis, kaqws kai to poso kostizoyn ston ellhniko lao oi Ypoyrgoi, k.l.p.

REPPAS: Ayta einai gnwsta. Einai eykolo, kapoios, o opoios qelei na ta ereynhsei na exei ta stoixeia poy ton endiaferoyn. Den einai kryfa ta stoixeia ayta, oson afora tis apodoxes.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: An sas parakaloysa na mas ta dianeimete to apogeyma, qa to kanate;

REPPAS: Den ta exw sth diaqesh moy. Alla kai den einai kai diko moy ergo. Apeyqynqeite se kaqe Ypoyrgeio, se kaqe dhmosio Organismo kai qa exete ta stoixeia ayta. Den gnwrizw na yparxei kapoia diadikasia, h opoia problepei th sygkentrwsh aytwn twn stoixeiwn, prokeimenoy sygkentrwmena na einai kapoy, wste na melethqoyn. Einai kati to opoio den problepetai. Alla, epeidh akribws gnwrizete oti h diadikasia einai apolyta diafanhs oson afora th misqodosia twn stelexwn toy Dhmosioy kai twn politikwn paragontwn, eykolotata o kaqenas apo sas mporei na exei prosbash s' ayta ta stoixeia. Den einai mystika. Oson afora twra to plhroforiako yliko, to opoio exoyn sth diaqesh toys oi dhmosiografoi, prokeimenoy na ypobohqoyn sto ergo toys, den qelw na kanw kanena sxolio. Pisteyw oti ayth einai mia praktikh, h opoia akoloyqeitai edw kai para polla xronia. Mia praktikh poy kai eseis dexeste oti bohqaei. Ginetai gia texnikoys h praktikoys logoys, den einai kati to asynhqisto. Den einai logiko, otan yparxei mia diafwnia epi ths oysias gia sygkekrimeno zhthma, na prospaqoyme me alloys tropoys na strecoyme pros alles kateyqynseis to endiaferon kai na mh syzhthsoyme epi ths oysias to sygkekrimeno zhthma. Exoyme ena qema poy afora th leitoyrgia twn dhmosiwn epixeirhsewn, poy einai zhmiogones h poly elleimmatikes. Yparxei protash, boylhsh, prwtoboylia ths Kybernhshs na antimetwpisei to qema ths allaghs twn kanonismwn Proswpikoy s' aytes tis epixeirhseis. Oi ergazomenoi me ta syndikata toys exoyn ekfrasei th diafwnia toys. Eimaste s' ayto to shmeio. H Boylh pleon exei to logo.

KIAOS: Epeidh anaferqhkate se mia meqodo poy akoloyqeitai. Hqela na rwthsw giati den epeleje h Kybernhsh th meqodo na anakoinwqoyn epishmws ws qeseis ths ayta ta peri pronomiwn kai dioxeteyqhkan se orismena mono Mesa. Den aspazetai h Kybernhsh epishmws ayth th qesh poy dienemhqh apo ta armodia Ypoyrgeia, opws eipe o synadelfos;

REPPAS: Prepei na pw oti h dhmosiografia prokeimenoy na ypobohqhqei o kaqenas apo sas, prepei kai dia aytoy toy tropoy na yposthrizetai. Prepei na yposthrizetai h dhmosiografia, prokeimenoy na yparxei plhrhs enhmerwsh. Dieykolyneste kai eseis sto reportaz to opoio kanete. Den nomizw oti ayto einai mempto. Gia na exete ypoch sas stoixeia, ta opoia einai shmantika, prokeimenoy na ta ajiopoihsete.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Poios dhmosiografos zhthse tetoia stoixeia;

REPPAS: Kyrie Mpogiopoyle, edw qetete ena megalo qema. Dioti oysiastikws, emmesws estw, alla oysiastikws, epixeireite na periorisoyme thn kykloforia twn apocewn poy yparxoyn gia diafora qemata. Parakalw para poly, jerete pote qa yphrxe problhma; An se kapoio Meso Enhmerwshs basei kapoias diatajhs h me tropo poy synista ayqairesia, h Kybernhsh epebale th dhmosieysh aytoy toy plhroforiakoy ylikoy h thn probolh toy. Tote qa mporoysame na milame gia ena problhma. Alla, parakalw para poly, ayto einai kati teleiws diaforetiko. Mhn epimenete, sas parakalw para poly.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Ws melos toy dhmosiografikoy kosmoy, egw den mporw na dextw oti xrhsimopoieite ws "aspida" toys dhmosiografoys gia na kanete ayto poy leei h GSEE, epanalambanw, "gkempelismo". Sas parakalw, tetoioy eidoys momfh pros to dhmosiografiko kosmo na mhn thn apeyqynete.

REPPAS: Den aphyqyna kamia momfh sto dhmosiografiko kosmo. Eseis apeyqynete, omws, qa moy epitrecete na pw...

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Egw metaferw ektimhsh tritobaqmias syndikalistikhs organwshs.

REPPAS: Kai fainetai oti symfwneite. Emeis diafwnoyme me ayto to sxolio.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: To ti kanw egw, einai allo qema.

REPPAS: Lew, fainetai. Kai fainetai oti symfwneite gia na qetete etsi to qema. Emeis, loipon, diafwnoyme. Qewroyme oti einai apokleistiko sas dikaiwma na anadeijete ta qemata ta opoia qewreite krisima gia ton topo kai ton Ellhniko Lao, me ton tropo poy eseis qa epilejete. Emeis, qewroyme aparaithto, prokeimenoy eseis na exete eparkh enhmerwsh, na exete ypoch sas olo ekeino to plhroforiako yliko poy qa sas bohqhsei na morfwsete gnwmh kai ayth th gnwmh na th metaferete kai ston Ellhniko Lao, stoys anagnwstes, toys thleqeates kai akroates.

KIAOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, sas rwthsa giati den qewrhse skopimo h Kybernhsh, dia toy armodioy Ypoyrgoy, na ta anakoinwsei epishma kai ta dioxeteyse;

REPPAS: Qa mporoysa na pw ki egw, kat' ayton ton tropo, giati den qewroyn skopimo kai oi dhmosiografoi, ean qeloyn na kanoyn ena plhres reportaz, na anazhthsoyn ayta ta stoixeia, opws o k. Mpogiopoylos endiaferetai na zhthsei ta stoixeia, ta opoia aforoyn kratika stelexh se diaforoys Organismoys h politikoys paragontes. Mhn mpoyme se ayto to dialogo.

KIAOS: Yparxei mia diafora...

REPPAS: Ayto to opoio exei ajia, einai na gnwrizete th qesh ths Kybernhshs. Th qesh ths Kybernhshs th gnwrizete.

KIAOS: Poia einai;

REPPAS: H politikh ths Kybernhshs sto sygkekrimeno qema exei diatypwqei kai symperilambanetai se ayth thn poly pyknh diatajh, h opoia qa syzhthqei sth Boylh.

KIAOS: H erwthsh kai to qema poy eteqh einai gia ta pronomia me h xwris eisagwgika, opws qelete parte to. Kai to janalew: einai epishmh qesh ths Kybernhshs ayto to xarti poy dioxeteythke h oxi;

REPPAS: Einai h praktikh poy pagiws akoloyqeitai.

KIAOS: Sas erwtw sygkekrimena, allo oi praktikes. Einai qesh ths Kybernhshs ayth poy dioxeteythke h oxi; Kai den moy apantate.

REPPAS: Kyrie Kiao, diylizete ton kwnwpa...

KIAOS: Afhste ton kwnwpa...

REPPAS: Kanete to sxolio sas. Egw qa kanw to diko moy.

KIAOS: Den sxoliazw, erwtw, k. Ypoyrge.

REPPAS: H apanthsh einai h ejhs: diylizete ton kwnwpa. Ayth h praktikh akoloyqeitai polla xronia. Einai kati to opoio ki eseis epiqymeite kai epidiwkete. Einai kati to opoio xrhsimopoieite ws yliko, prokeimenoy na kanete ena plhres reportaz kai na paroysiasete ta qemata sthn koinh gnwmh. An den qelete na yparxei pleon ayth h diadikasia, na peite epishma, oti thn katadikazoyme emeis, ws dhmosiografoi. Kai mhn kratate tis apostaseis apo to sxolio ths GSEE. Peite oti symfwnoyme, oti qewroyme oti ayto den prepei na ginetai apo kanenan, enw gnwrizete poly kala oti einai ena meso to opoio sas ejyphretei, gia na exete me enan hmiepishmo tropo kapoia stoixeia ta opoia einai xrhsima gia th doyleia sas.

KIAOS: Eipate arketa pragmata, an moy epitrepete, xwris na rwthsw, na sas pw prwton, oti o dhmosiografos exei dikaiwma na cajei kai na brei kai na anaskalisei o,tidhpote. Den yparxei fragmos. Poyqena, se tipota den yparxei fragmos...

REPPAS: Mh biazeste, den einai akribws etsi.

KIAOS: Me sygxwreite, den yparxei fragmos. O fragmos mpainei monaxa me th logokrisia kai monaxa me to "apagoreyetai". Deyteron, h erwthsh htan, an eseis, ws Kybernhsh, epishmws, ta yioqeteite kai apoteloyn qesh sas. Allo h doyleia poy kanei o dhmosiografos, poy ereyna, poy kanei reportaz kai allo h epishmh qesh ths Kybernhshs. Oyte "kwnwpes", oyte tipota allo. Einai sygkekrimena ta pragmata.

REPPAS: Epeidh ta xeirizomaste ayta ta qemata ki exoyme oligon katatopistei, para to oti den eimaste oi pleon eidikoi, prepei na sas pw, k. Kiao, oti asfalws yparxoyn oria entos twn opoiwn kinoyntai oloi. Kai yparxoyn fragmoi. Den mporei h eyxereia poy exete na syllegete plhrofories gia na enhmerwsete antikeimenika ton Ellhniko Lao, na odhgoyn se parabiash atomikwn dikaiwmatwn sympolitwn mas. To orio sto opoio qa stamathsete, einai ekeino to opoio orizetai apo thn anagkh na perifroyreitai kai na prostateyetai h ajioprepeia kai h proswpikothta twn sympolitwn mas. Thn eyxereia ayth na syllegete plhrofories, den thn exete ws atomiko dikaiwma sas, thn exete ej antanaklasews, ws ypoxrewsh na prosferete antikeimenikh enhmerwsh. Kai mono gi' ayto. Peran toytoy, oydeis ypoxrewse --gia na eimaste eilikrineis- opoiondhpote apo esas h toys synadelfoys sas, na dhmosieysei keimena h na probalei mhnyma. Alla, lypoymai giati qetete to qema ayto san na einai megisto. Gia mas prepei na yparxei plhroforiako yliko, to opoio den exei kanenan allo skopo, para na yposthrijei to ergo to opoio kanete eseis. Mporeite na to petajete ston kalaqo twn axrhstwn an den to ajiologeite ws shmantiko gia th doyleia sas. Kante to. Mh fqanete sto shmeio, omws, mia praktikh thn opoia gnwrizete, giati ergazeste sto xwro ths enhmerwshs poly pio palia ap' o,ti breqhka egw, na thn proseggizete m' ayton ton tropo.

KIAOS: An qelete na orisete mia hmera gia na milhsoyme gi' ayto to qema.

REPPAS: Milhsa, xqes, gi' ayta ta qemata, se sxetikh ekdhlwsh sto Dikhgoriko Syllogo.

MOSXOBAS: Qa apeyqynw mia erwthsh, h opoia exei teqei polles fores edw sto Press Room. Qa qesei o Prwqypoyrgos qema kommatikhs peiqarxias th Deytera; Kai to erwtw ayto, giati se allepallhles erwthseis mas eixate pei edw oti oi boyleytes exoyn aisqhsh ths eyqynhs k.t.l. Shmera, omws, akoysa boyleytes na dhlwnoyn oti qa katachfisoyn thn epimaxh diatajh.

REPPAS: Epanerxomai, akribws, sta osa exw pei tis prohgoymenes hmeres, apantwntas se sxetikes erwthseis.

MOSXOBAS: Ki ena deytero erwthma, ean o Prwqypoyrgos exei kata noy na kanei dekto to aithma twn agrotwn, na synanthqei mazi toys. Malista, kai o k. Ebert anakoinwse oti ayto qa prajei, qa synanthqei mazi toys.

REPPAS: O Prwqypoyrgos einai gnwsths twn agrotikwn qematwn. Kaloyme toys agrotes na exoyn mia epikoinwnia kai synergasia me to Ypoyrgeio Gewrgias. Oi portes toy Ypoyrgeioy einai anoiktes, h politikh hgesia toy Ypoyrgeioy einai sth diaqesh toys. Kanei ta panta, edw kai para poly kairo, gia na antimetwpisei ta problhmata twn agrotwn. Prepei na yparxei aytos o dialogos. Milhsa allwste sthn arxh, gia thn anagkh ths synennohshs kai ths synergasias, gia thn apofygh ths antiparaqeshs, h opoia den odhgei poyqena kai blaptei th xwra.

MOSXOBAS: Me ton Prwqypoyrgo den qa synanthqoyn;

REPPAS: Den yparxei tetoio qema twra.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: H Kybernhsh -pairnw ena proxeiro paradeigma apo ayta poy dioxeteyse pros ta ejw- qewrei oti p.x. to gala poy pinoyn oi ergazomenoi, logw toy anqygieinoy ths ergasias toys, einai pronomio;

REPPAS: Exw apanthsei gia ola ayta ta qemata, ta opoia mas apasxoloyn, se sxesh me to sygkekrimeno zhthma.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Epeidh, anaferqhkate sth xqesinh paroysia sas, sthn ekdhlwsh toy Dikhgorikoy Syllogoy, ekei h synadelfos ka Kanellh eipe -fantazomai enwpion sas- "mhpws den gnwrizete poios pairnei sta kanalia toys ekei ypeyqynoys kai toys leei ti na proballoyn;. O Tsoykatos pairnei". Mporeite na kanete ena sxolio ep' aytoy poy eipe h synadelfos;

REPPAS: Akoysa thn prwth omilia ths kas Kanellh kai mporw na sas pw oti thn prosypografw apolyta. Milhse me wmo tropo gia ton kynismo twn MME, diektragwdhse mia katastash, h opoia yparxei, idiws stoys thleoptikoys staqmoys. Milhse me tetoio tropo poy se teleytaia analysh nomizw oti apodidei isws thn pragmatikothta. Den fantazomoyn omws oti einai toso zoferh. Edwse eikona dhmosiografwn poy en ocei toy agxoys ths ychlhs thleqeashs einai diateqeimenoi na kanoyn ta panta. Ayto moy htan adianohto. To akoysa xqes.

KACAMPELHS: Afoy ypobalw protash na kanoyme mia hmerida se ena apo ta prosexh Sabbatokyriaka...

REPPAS: Egw apantw se erwthseis. Ayto poy lete apeyqynetai se synadelfoys sas, oxi se mena.

KACAMPELHS: Qa hqela, loipon, na rwthsw an yparxei endexomeno sthn periptwsh poy kapoioi boyleytes toy PASOK den chfisoyn to nomosxedio na ypostoyn kati analogo me toys treis synadelfoys toys.

REPPAS: Den yparxei tetoio qema. Einai yperboliko na miloyme gia kommatikh peiqarxia. Yparxei peiqarxia apenanti sthn eyqynh kai apostolh poy o Ellhnikos Laos mas aneqese kai anamenei na antapokriqoyme se aythn.

ELENOPOYLOS: Erwthqhkate prin an h parainesh gia koinh prospaqeia kai allhleggya stash, poy einai ena mhnyma me apodektes oloys kai prepei na einai kanonas symperiforas kai eipate oti den apeyqynetai stoys Ypoyrgoys. Rwtw se poioys apeyqynetai ean den apeyqynetai stoys Ypoyrgoys.

REPPAS: Oi ypoyrgoi oi opoioi syzhthsan gia ta qemata ayta epanelaban ki ekeinoi thn anagkh na yparxei ayth h koinh stash kai synergasia, ws politikh proteraiothta, h opoia se megalo baqmo qa ephreasei kai thn epityxia toy kybernhtikoy ergoy. Einai kati to aytonohto. Polles fores aytes oi politikes epishmanseis exoyn mia genikh ajia. To exw pei kai to epanalambanw. mhn prospaqeite na tis parermhneysete. Apeyqynontai se oloys kai kaloyntai oloi na tis ensternisqoyn.

ELENOPOYLOS: Ean qewrhsoyme oti exoyn dedomeno ayto ton kanona symperiforas, dhladh einai metajy toys allhleggyoi kai paroysiazoyn pros ta ejw mia koinh prospaqeia, erwtw poioi einai aytoi poy den to prattoyn kai ypoxreoyntai na to prajoyn;

REPPAS: An yparxei estw kai enas poy den to prattei, to mhnyma apeyqynetai se enan, ean yparxoyn dyo, apeyqynetai se dyo, an yparxoyn perissoteroi, apeyqynetai se perissoteroys. Apeyqynetai se oloys ekeinoys oi opoioi exoyn ypoxrewsh na ferontai m' enan tetoio tropo, wste na einai symfwnoi me toys kanones leitoyrgias ths Kybernhshs kai, an milame kai gia to PASOK, kai toy kommatos mas.

T. MPERMPERAKHS: Gia ta ellhnotoyrkika yphrxe eishghsh toy Prwqypoyrgoy kai toy Ypoyrgoy Ejwterikwn; An yphrxe s' ayth thn eishghsh kapoios xarakthrismos oson afora th sygkyria twn ellhnotoyrkikwn kai an egine opoiadhpote syzhthsh h parathrhsh sxetika me tis teleytaies dhlwseis toy k. Pagkaloy;

REPPAS: O k. Pagkalos ekane mia eishghsh, enw alloi elaban to logo kai milhsan gia ta qemata ths ejwterikhs politikhs kai twn ellhnotoyrkikwn sxesewn. Milhsa sthn arxh kai eipa oti krinoyme pws yparxei mia reystothta sto politiko skhniko ths Toyrkias ayth thn periodo. Epiqymoyme na yparxei staqerothta, na yparxoyn omales ejelijeis sth geitonikh xwra. Na anaptyssoyme mia ajiopisth sxesh, sto plaisio ths Eyrwpaikhs Enwshs, me thn Toyrkia. Apo kei kai pera, anamenomenes einai oi entaseis. Pisteyoyme oti h symperifora ths Toyrkias den odhgei sthn epiteyjh twn stoxwn poy leei oti exei qesei. Emeis epimenoyme ayto to qema, ths symperiforas ths Toyrkias, na to anadeiknyoyme, kalwntas thn na entaxqei stis eyrwpaikes domes, wste na symperiferetai kai analoga.

DHMAKAS: Aytes oi epishmanseis poy ekane o Prwqypoyrgos gia allhleggyh kai koinh stash, htan sygkekrimenes kai ean nai mporeite na mas peite merikes, se merikoys tomeis;

REPPAS: Den egine sygkekrimenh anafora. Htan mia epishmansh h opoia exei mia genikh politikh ajia, thn opoia kai eseis anagnwrizete.

DHMAKAS: Apo ton Prwqypoyrgo;

REPPAS: Apo oloys.

DHMAKAS: Apo Ypoyrgoys pros ton Prwqypoyrgo;

REPPAS: Oxi pros ton Prwqypoyrgo. Einai kati to opoio proekyce kata th syzhthsh, ws qema to opoio mas apasxolei oloys. Einai ena qema to opoio exei shmasia kai prepei na to antimetwpisoyme.

ELENOPOYLOS: Eipate "syzhtoyme gia na epishmainoyme adynamies kai kaqysterhseis". Einai dynaton na mas peite ean epishmanqhkan sygkekrimenoi tomeis stoys opoioys yparxoyn kaqysterhseis;

REPPAS: Qa anaferw ena paradeigma -kai qa apanthsw etsi, xwris na eklabete ws ypekfygh thn apanthsh moy- poy deixnei tis nootropies oi opoies yparxoyn kai toys ryqmoys me toys opoioys kineitai h ellhnikh koinwnia. Shmera h ayrio lhgei h proqesmia entos ths opoias qa eprepe ta Kentra Epaggelmatikhs Katartishs na kataqesoyn ta stoixeia toys, prokeimenoy na pistopoihqei h katallhlothta twn egkatastasewn toys h h eparkeia twn spoydwn poy parexoyn. Shmera leitoyrgoyn sthn Ellada peripoy 600 tetoia Kentra. Prepei na sas pw oti mexri xqes, kai enw h proqesmia lhgei shmera h ayrio, den eixe proselqei oyte enas. Oloi qa proselqoyn shmera h ayrio. Ayta einai problhmata pragmatika. Exoyn sxesh me nootropies, me ryqmoys, poy dhmioyrgoyn kai terastia problhmata sth genikh prospaqeia mas na antimetwpisoyme ta zhthmata poy apasxoloyn ton ellhniko lao. Ta problhmata ths dioikhshs, ta problhmata poy prokyptoyn, me tropo aifnidiastiko polles fores, mas anagkazoyn na bgoyme ejw apo ton programmatismo mas. Opws einai oi kinhtopoihseis gia paradeigma, oi opoies ekdhlwnontai gia qemata gia ta opoia einai para poly dyskolo na prokycei symfwnia, giati den yparxei dynatothta na ikanopoihqoyn sto oikonomiko meros toys ta aithmata ayta. Ayta dhmioyrgoyn empodia sto ergo mas.

KIAOS: Sth synedriash ths K.E. akoysthkan perissotero ektimhseis h kai apofaseis;

REPPAS: Egine ektimhsh, episkophsh, sxediasmos. Den elhfqhsan apofaseis. Oi apofaseis poy elhfqhsan einai -qa elega- politikoy kai oxi nomikoy periexomenoy. Einai politikoy periexomenoy apofaseis kai lyseis.

KIAOS: Oi apofaseis aytes, oi politikoy periexomenoy, exoyn sxesh kai me kainoyrgia politikh se kapoioys tomeis h oxi;

REPPAS: Aforoyn thn efarmogh toy programmatos mas, opws to exoyme ejaggeilei kai perilambanei ta panta.

KIAOS: Kai oi ektimhseis htan omofwnes;

REPPAS: Nai kai leme oti qa pame poly kala.

Sas eyxaristw kai kalo Sabbatokyriako.

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