USIA - Transcript: Worldnet Dialog on "The Kurdish Problem" (96-08-09)

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OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT: WORLDNET DIALOG AUGUST 9 MBC PROGRAM

(Experts discuss "The Kurdish Problem") (6570)

"We have to find a new and correct solution for the Kurdish problem in order to find stability for the region," according to a spokesman for the National Kurdish Council of North America.

Speaking from Washington via satellite, the spokesman joined Mike Amity, a member of the Congressional Helsinki Committee, specializing in Kurdish affairs, along with their counterparts in London, Dr. Makmoud Asman, professor specializing in the Kurdish affairs at the University of London and David MacDowell, a British writer specializing in Middle Eastern affairs and the Kurdish question. They invited viewers to participate via telephone in the discussion.

Following is a transcript of the program.

(Begin transcript)

We shall discuss with our guests the Kurdish problem, which emerged on the stage of international events after the declaration by American President Woodrow Wilson of his famous principles, which included the right of people under the hegemony of the Ottoman Empire to self-determination, including the Kurdish people.

With us in our London studios to discuss this topic, we have Dr. Makmoud Asman (ph), professor specializing in the Kurdish affairs at the University of London. Dr. Asman (ph), welcome. We also welcome Mr. David MacDowell (sp), a British writer specializing in Middle Eastern affairs and the Kurdish question. Welcome.

Here in Washington we welcome Dr. Medin Karem (ph), spokesman for the National Kurdish Council of North America. Welcome. We also welcome Mike Amity (ph), member of the Congressional Helsinki Committee, and specializing in Kurdish affairs.

We remind our viewers and listeners who wish to participate in this dialogue that the program's telephone number, as usual, is 44-171-720-7209. Once again: 44-171-720-7209. It is also possible to participate by fax. The number is 44-171-622-6949.

Before we start our dialogue with you and with our program guests, let us find out more about the Kurdish problems and the reasons why and the challenges, to where Western countries ar determined to rule out the idea of establishing a Kurdish state.

The Kurdish question, affecting more than 20 million Kurds living in Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria, is receiving considerable attention at the present time because of its political and demographic importance, and because of the significant effect it has on relations between the countries where the Kurds live.

These countries have tried to use the Kurdish question as a pressure tool they can use in the secret ongoing conflict among them. It is that which has led to the extensive human tragedy which occurred. The Kurdish question saw the headlines again following the outbreak of violent battles in northern Iraq over the leadership of the Kurds between the Kurdistan Democratic Party and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. Newspapers have been reporting recently news about the assassination and liquidation of Kurdish officials in Europe. Iranians were accused of planning those incidents.

Exploitation of the Kurds in regional conflicts is nothing new. In past centuries Ottomans and Persians took advantage of ongoing disputes between Kurdish leaders to expand their control and influence on some sensitive areas. In doing that they showed no concern for the Kurdish tragedy that ensued.

During different periods of their history, the Kurds tried to lend their support to the feuding parties in the hopes that they can establish their independent state. Their goals seemed achievable after the 1920 Versailles Agreement was signed; but the dream of an independent state was stifled by Kemal Ataturk's refusal -- and he is the founder of modern Turkey -- to implement the provisions of this agreement.

Following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the Kurds were scattered and dispersed among the emerging states, which found out that they had to deal with a complicated and chronic problem. Even these emerging states tried to use the Kurdish question to realize their own interests. And once again the Kurds found themselves caught in the middle of changing conflicts and alliances in the countries where they lived. This is precisely what happened in October 1992, when Turkish forces launched military attacks with the assistance of 20,000 Iraqi Kurds against the locations of extremist Kurdish Labor Party and the Kurdish Leftist Party in northern Iraq. The attack caused numerous casualties and many injuries among the rank and file of both parties.

And before that, in the '70s, the Kurds had endured severe hardships in their war against the Iraqi regime to establish an autonomous government in their areas in Iraq. They relied then on support from the shah of Iran, who had a dispute with the Iraqi government.

The Kurdish tragedy became more expensive in the last few years after the Kurds became homeless as they fled from repeated military attacks on their homes. Last month the Turkish and Iranian armies launched violent attacks against Kurdish areas in Turkey and Iraq. In March 1988, Saddam Hussein had ordered an attack with chemical weapons on the Kurdish area of Halabja (sp). That attack caused hundreds of deaths and injuries.

At the present time Ankara is accusing Syria of supporting Kurdish militants from Turkish territory for the purpose of pressuring Turkey into settling the problem of dividing the water of the Euphrates River, which has led to the tensions between the two countries. Given these conflicts and complications, I start with my question to Dr. Makmoud Asman (ph). We have statistics about the Kurds. We are talking here about more than 20 million citizens in a number of countries of the Middle East. Let's start with some aspects of the Kurdish problem in each one of the countries where they are found.

MR. ASMAN (ph): The fact of the matter is that the number of Kurds is in excess of 35 million. But what is important to note here is that the Kurds are a nation that was scattered after the First World War. And the countries in which they live now deny their rights as a nation, as a people. Force has been used against them to deny them those rights. And the fighting that has gone on has continued for years. In Iran, the authorities speak about the fact that all of them are Muslims; but that does not apply when it comes to the national rights of the Kurds.

Saddam Hussein and all his wars that are well known against us have been known to have destroyed our dreams and destroyed our areas in which we live.

The problem exists -- it's the problem of a nation who has the right to determine their own destiny. But these countries under which the Kurds live do not agree with that notion, with that principle, that they have the right to determine their own destiny. The international community has neglected that problem, and it is for these reasons that we believe that the solution -- that we need to address this problem, we need to end the negative conditions under which the Kurdish people live, and we need to redress those wrongs.

I think that we have to find certain prospects to solve this problem. I personally suggested a few years ago that we should hold a conference to discuss the problem, and that the Kurds would participate in that conference, as well as all the other countries where the Kurds live -- Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. The international community would participate in that conference, and the United Nations would sponsor it or would oversee it.

We need a dialogue with the Turks, with the Iranians, with the Arabs and with all others, and with the international community to discuss the issue. But unfortunately our dialogue has always been conducted in the past with weapons.

MR. SHINNAWI: (?) Forgive me, we need to ask a question to Mr. MacDowell (sp). And we need to ask them -- there was a conference held in Dublin in the middle of last year among the leaders, Kurdish leaders, and an agreement was reached at the end of those talks and that conference. Based upon your experience in the Kurdish question, why is it that the agreement was not implemented?

MR. MACDOWELL (sp): I believe that there are two main reasons why the agreement was not implemented. The first one was domestic or internal. There is great lack of confidence among the different Kurdish parties. There is a lack of confidence among them. The fact that they do not trust each other is something that has existed in their midst for many years, but it surfaced in the last two years. But in fact it goes back to the early '60s, this lack of trust. Mr. Barjani (ph) and Mr. Talibani (ph) had poor relations -- had had poor relations -- and had had differences in views on their approach to the problem and ways to solve it. (Inaudible) -- Talbani (ph) was a tribal leader, and the struggle between Barjani (ph) and Talbani (ph) continued to dominate.

I believe that the specific characteristics of both parties are also responsible for those differences. In 1987, it was hoped when a certain entity was formed that the two parties would put the interests of the nation above their own interests and the interests of their parties; but that did not happen. There was a dispute over who would rule the area. There was an agreement reached on joint rule.

MR. KABALAN: Mr. MacDowell (sp), we will talk about these divisions and their effects on the Kurdish situation in general later. We continue our dialogue with Mr. Shinnawi and his guests in Washington.

MR. SHINNAWI: We present this question to Mr. -- (inaudible) -- Karem (ph). We have heard Dr. Makmoud (sp) talking about the national aspiration of the Kurdish people. In your opinion, how is it possible to fulfill these aspirations without touching the stability of the region in which there is a huge quantity -- a huge number of Kurds living in Iraq, Turkey and even Syria?

MR. KAREM (ph): Before I would like to clarify something, that the situation of the countries that divides the Kurdish people among itself -- it is not one that enjoys stability, since the division of the Kurds among these countries. That is why we have to find a new and correct solution for the Kurdish problem in order to find stability for the region. In our opinion the Kurdish people is a huge nation, just like the explanation forwarded by Dr. Makmoud Asman (sp). We are between 30 to 35 million people living in the region, stripped of their political and human rights. They were subjected to extermination and chemical attacks. This nation must be given its rights. We are not talking about -- anyway, when we talk about the human rights, are we talking about their self-determination or the rights of minorities? In our opinion, the root causes, which is the self- determination, must be given to the Kurdish people, including the right of succession and the establishment of an independent state.

Of course the Kurdish problem is a complex one, since Kurdistan is divided among many countries, primarily between the four countries as well as some of the former Soviet Union. Finding a resolution or a solution for the Kurdish problem is the finding of a country. So each part of Kurdistan is subject to different conditions. For instance, in Turkey we find that the regime is different than the Iranian and the Iraqi regimes. In Turkey the regimes allow a form of democracy if you are a Turk, but will not allow that democracy if you claim that you are a Kurd. Consequently, as a result of deportation and pushing them to Western Turkey, the geography and the condition change, perhaps the solution in Turkey would differ than northern Iraq.

MR. SHINNAWI: Let us find out the opinion of Michael Amity (sp), member of the Congressional Helsinki Committee. You followed the provisions of the Helsinki Committee, which respects the human rights of minorities. How do you assess the human rights situation of Kurds in Turkey specifically?

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, I think they're facing a crisis that has been going on for -- since the modern Turkish state was established. This human rights crisis is characterized by a number of different problems, as we see them through the Helsinki context. That would be problems related to free expression, destruction of villages and internal displacement. We've heard reports of up to three million internally displaced Kurds within Turkey, creating all sorts of social and economic problems beyond the general human rights problems. There is obviously the question of torture. And there was a big article in the Journal of American Medical Association detailing torture in Turkey, and the medical profession and Turkey's response to torture. And you also have problems related to disappearances, extrajudicial killings and other threats to the lives of Kurdish and other human rights activists in Turkey.

MR. SHINNAWI: Thank you. And we continue the dialogue with Nidal and his guests in London.

MR. KABALAN: Thank you, Mohammed. Dr. Makoud Asman (ph), we see a clear division among the Kurds that becomes evident sometimes in the violent battles and conflicts between the feuding parties. Two months ago there were liquidations among the tribes. How do you see these affecting the unity of the Kurdish people?

MR. ASMAN (ph): The internal divisions and the conflict are very dangerous to Kurdish unity, especially those divisions that are between the Kurdistan Democratic Party and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and also most recently the problems between the Kurds of Iran and the Kurds of Iraq. I think these divisions and conflicts are very dangerous, because they divide the Kurdish nation, and they are used by the neighboring countries which conspire against the Kurdish people. They are utilized by these countries to prove to the world that the Kurdish people should not have their own nation.

We are convinced that the United States is not interested in the Kurdish question. It does not have a program to address this question, and it does not have a solution to it. And all of this is being used to keep a solution away from all of us, because of the relationship between the United States and Turkey. The United States supports Turkey against the Kurds.

As far as Iran is concerned, we suffer from the personal interests or the national interests that Iran has against the Kurds.

MR. KABALAN: (?) We have a question from one of our listeners, and we now start by receiving those questions. We have a question from Sweden.

Q My question is addressed to the American guest. Is there any thinking among U.S. politicians and leaders to introduce the Kurdish question into the Middle East peace process? And why is it that no action is being taken to solve the Kurdish problem internationally and regionally, even though the Kurdish nation is being subjected to mass murder and genocide?

MR. KABALAN: (?) Mr. Amity (sp) is actually not a representative of the American government, but we ask him to respond to that question.

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, I think that even though the Kurdish question has not been formally introduced into the Middle East peace process, it is a part of that process. I think the recent agreements between Turkey and Israel have made it clear that the question of the future of the Kurds is going to be intricately linked with future negotiations with Syria -- the whole question of Iraq's territorial integrity, and certainly when you have 35 million people in an area of extreme strategic and economic importance to the United States, and you have an ally or U.S. allies in Israel and Egypt, who are an intricate part of this process, at some point, whether they formally deal with this or not, there will have to be some accommodation made to the Kurdish people in each of the countries where they live.

MR. KABALAN: (?) Dear listeners and viewers, we shall continue the program of the future of the Kurdish problem with our guests in Washington, so stay with us. (Break.)

MR. KABALAN: (?) Welcome again, dear viewers and listeners everywhere, to this edition of "Dialogue With the West," to focus on the Kurdish problem. Mr. MacDowell (sp), we received a question from Mr. Hassan Elmonardi (ph). It says: The Kurdish region does not possess the requirements for a state. Do you think the Kurdish problem is used as a American card to pressure Iraq, Syria, Iran?

MR. MACDOWELL (sp): It is very clear that there is a problem about the establishment of a Kurdish national state. This problem becomes more difficult with the intervention of other countries, and the countries in which the Kurdish people reside. One of these countries, does not want to give independence to the Kurds. And the role of the United States and France and Britain -- they are committed to provide protection to the Kurds, but the United States has a policy towards Turkey, Syria, Iran and Israel, and has a policy of containment. And yet, to return to the Dublin agreement we see an agreement that's under the auspices of the United States. They did not want to see the fulfillment of that agreement, because Syria is facing Israel and Turkey, and Iran is facing the policy of containment by the United States. This is a major problem for the Kurds. In any political development, always there are regional and outside forces that have other interests in direct contradiction to their own interests. And I think the Kurds are facing this problem.

MR. KABALAN: Thank you, Mr. MacDowell (sp). We go to Mohammed Shinnawi.

MR. SHINNAWI: We have a similar question from Oma Hamer (ph) in (Germany ?). She says that we heard in the name under Nicholas Burns, the spokesman of the State Department, to the saving the integrity of the Iraq. Does this statement represent the absolute negation of the possibility of dividing Iraq?

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, I don't know that the United States would have the final say in what happens in Iraq, regardless of what they would like to see there. I personally think that the United States has a somewhat contradictory policy when it says that it refuses to consider breaking the territorial integrity of Iraq, and at the same time it is pushing quite hard to maintain the protection of the enclave in northern Iraq. At some point this contradiction will have to be addressed in some fashion. I don't know whether that means that there will have to be some type of independent entity set up; but, at the very least, if the protection of the Kurds is the goal of this government, as well as keeping Iraq's integrity complete, then the U.S. will indeed have to make sure that if Saddam Hussein's authority is extended into this protected enclave that the rights of the citizens there will be protected, and that our humanitarian goals in this region will remain intact.

MR. SHINNAWI: (?) Mr. Karem (ph), we also noticed that the forces of the international coalition supported the Kurds to encourage them to rise against Saddam Hussein. Afterwards the European and the Western and the American perspective changed, and changed vis-a-vis the Kurdish question, and it became more a humanitarian problem. How do you explain this shift in the international perspective, specifically when we consider the fact that France asked for the Kurdish question to be dealt with so that the Kurds can determine their own destiny?

MR. KAREM (ph): I wanted to first of all to comment on the remarks that was made that the Kurdish people do not have the qualities or the characteristics for forming a nation. Many nations, and even I want to say that the Kurdish people have what it takes to establish a nation more so than many of the other nations in the world and throughout history.

I think that this is something that the Kurds have to decide for themselves. If the Kurds decide that they can establish a nation, they will do so.

We have to remember that when President Bush announced that the Soviet Union would not be divided, and yet we saw that it was decided, and the new republics were recognized by the international community, we conclude from that that the right to self-determination is a decision that is made by the nations themselves.

The international policy has not changed. There is support for the Kurdish nation, and there is assistance, humanitarian assistance, for them. But the divisions within the Kurdish community and within the Kurdish nation is also the reason why there are so many contradictions. And it is also the reason why the present leaders do not really believe in the establishment of a Kurdish nation.

MR. KABALAN: (?) Thank you for your comments. We now go to Manchester in Britain for a question, a telephone call. My question is directed to Mr. Amity (sp). My question is this: Don't you think that the double standard that is used by the American policy towards the Kurds -- namely their view that Turkish Kurds are terrorists and they are trying to give them -- do you see the double standard in that policy?

MR. AMITY: Well, I would first just try to qualify what you said. I don't think the U.S. government considers all Turkish Kurds terrorists. But they're quite clear that they consider the PKK a terrorist organization. However, I do think that the U.S. government needs to find some type of way of not supporting efforts by the Turkish government to use the terrorist label in a very broad fashion, to extend to those who are not members, or who don't even advocate violence used by the PKK, because unless there is some type of support given to what I would say moderate Kurds in Turkey -- and I would say that majority of Kurds in Turkey are moderate in their views and want a peaceful solution to their situation -- unless there is a recognition that not everybody who stands up for Kurdish rights is a terrorist, and the U.S., by supporting Turkey's broad labeling in fact make it more difficult for moderates to become involved in peaceful dialogue. And I think the U.S., with its influence on the Turkish government, should make it very clear that while terrorism is objectionable, people who peacefully demonstrate for their own rights, including Kurds in Turkey, should be allowed to do so, and to participate in the political process.

MR. SHINNAWI: We continue dear viewers and listeners about the Kurdish problem, and we go to Nidal Kabalan in London.

MR. KABALAN: We remind our viewers and listeners the telephone number for "Dialogue With the West" is 44-171-720-7209 -- 720-7209. We continue this dialogue.

Dr. Makmoud Asman (ph), we have many calls from Sweden. We have two questions. The first question, from Abruda (ph). He would like to send greetings to Abou Asman (ph), and he would like to talk about the situation of the Kurds in Syria.

MR. ASMAN (ph): The Kurds in Syria -- in fact, I stayed in Syria for a while and I know the situation. They do not have constitutional rights, but there is no fighting in Syria -- there is no armed fighting. And we hope in the future that there will be a just solution, that their administrative and cultural rights will be given to the satisfaction of all, in comparison with Iraq and Iran and Turkey, but they do not have constitutional rights.

Q What do you mean by constitutional rights?

MR. ASMAN (ph): In the Constitution it is not written that the Kurds enjoy cultural rights, but there is no fighting and there is no revolution and armed conflict in Syria, and the situation is not volatile as in Turkey, Iran and Iraq.

MR. KABALAN: (?) A second question from Sweden says that each of the four countries vis-a-vis the Kurdish problems, they would like -- they use the Kurdish cause in the other three countries in order to finish the Kurdish problem. What is your comment?

MR. ASMAN (ph): This is true. These countries are trying -- do not recognize the rights of the Kurds, and do not support the Kurds to establish the Kurds on the other side of the border. But sometimes they would like to gain the friendship of the Kurds on the other side of the border for their own benefit. And sometimes they fall into pitfalls -- for instance, in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. And these countries cooperate among themselves. We have seen that before -- in Baghdad in '65, and the Algeria agreement in '75 -- and they consider the Kurdish problem as a threat. Some of them they call it a security vacuum. So any -- they don't want to resolve this, because they feel any renaissance in the Kurdish problems will create problems with their own Kurds. And this is not true. This is a nation asking for its rights.

MR. KABALAN: We continue, dear viewers and listeners, to receive this question. We have a call from Germany.

Q Good evening, Nidal. I have two questions to Dr. MacDowell (sp). My first question: What is the primary goal of the presence of the allied forces? Is it to protect the Kurds of Iraq? And what will happen to the Kurds if these international alliance forces will vacate? Or will it be replaced by United Nations forces? We would like to remind you what happened in the past and what is happening now. The condition is similar to the Jews during the World War II and even more.

The second question: What is the importance of Turkey to the United States as an alliance after the Cold War? Because I believe that the objection of Turkey to the establishment of a northern state in northern Kurdistan in Iraq -- what is the role of the protective forces to protect the Kurds in northern Iraq, and what will happen to the Kurds if the forces are withdrawn?

MR. MACDOWELL (sp): I think I have to say that the goal of the United States and the Soviet Union in the Gulf War is to provide protection to the Kurds of Iraq. This situation is confused and complex. The forces are providing aerial support, and we have seen the scenes on television that showed the Kurds suffering. This was embarrassing to the West. Secondly, I think it was very embarrassing for Turkey for all these people to see the Kurds crossing the border from northern Iraq into Turkey.

What will happen if this force is to be withdrawn? I believe that it is probable that the armed forces will regain this region, and will reach all the way to the Turkish border. But what deters it now -- that does not want to cause problems for Iraq and Turkey by pushing refugees in the region. Baghdad, if given the choice, it will regain all the land.

MR. KABALAN: I would like to pose a second question to Mr. Mike Amity (sp) in Washington. The viewer is asking what is the importance of Turkey to the United States in the aftermath of the Cold War.

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, I think Turkey's importance is even more -- to the U.S. -- is even more -- or even greater than during the Cold War, given the very fluid situation that we now face in all of the regions proximate to Turkey -- whether the Balkans, the Caucuses, the Middle East -- all of these regions have acute importance -- strategic and economic -- to the United States. And therefore the United States' government influence over Turkey one would think would be even greater.

The political situation now in Turkey is very complicated, and I think the U.S. is still trying to figure out exactly how best to conduct its relations with the new welfare coalition. I think that the United States perhaps relies too heavily on its military relations with Turkey to determine its policies. It will now, I think with the new government in Turkey, they will have to reassess this new relationship, and should they determine to essentially continue on the primarily -- the relationship with the secularists, including the military, it will raise even more questions about commitments to the democratic process that Turkey has recently gone through, and about the United States' ability to deal with Islamic governments in general -- not that we would consider the present government in Turkey to be purely Islamic.

MR. KABALAN: (?) Listeners and viewers in Germany, we now go to Holland for a telephone call. Hello?

Q My greetings to your guest. And my question is for Mr. Amity (sp). I have two small questions. The first one is: Don't you think that the future of the peace process depends upon recognition of the rights of the Kurdish people without any preconditions?

The second question has to do with the fact that the -- given the fact that all the countries support -- the Muslim countries support the rights of the Kurdish people --

MR. KABALAN: (?) Your first question is the relationship between the Kurdish question and the solution to the Middle East process, and the second question has to do with the negligence by the Muslim nations of the rights of the Kurdish people.

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, I mean, again, since the Kurdish question is not formally on the agenda of the Middle East peace process, as other events move forward -- for instance, if there is an Israel-Syria rapprochement, and if relations between Israel and Turkey and Jordan and Egypt mature -- I don't necessarily think that the recognition of the Kurds without preconditions will necessarily have to occur before this peace process moves forward. However, I don't think you can ignore the situation of the Kurds. And given that the Israel-Palestinian question has entered a new stage -- I won't say it has been finalized yet -- but I would think that the biggest unresolved question then facing the entire Middle East would be the fate of the Kurds -- and that obviously has repercussions in all of the questions where Kurds live, and in all the countries where Kurds live, and all of their neighbors.

In terms of the negligence of Arab governments, they also have their own agendas. They have also found it convenient to raise Kurdish issues at certain times. They have their own relationships with Turkey and the other countries where Kurds live. I certainly think that they could give the Kurdish people greater support, without necessarily upsetting Turkey. But, again, they all have their own agendas in this matter.

MR. KABALAN: (?) Thank you, Mr. Amity (sp).

Listeners and viewers, we will continue our dialogue over the Kurdish question and the near future for it after this short break. (Break.)

MR. KABALAN: (?) Welcome again. We are talking about a nation that is called the largest minority. Dr. Makmoud Asman (ph), two questions from Sweden and Denmark. The Kurds are divided among themselves. How, if we recognize their right to self-determination -- will that become a second Afghanistan? Your comment?

Second question: What is your comment about the missing Kurds of Iraq?

MR. ASMAN (ph): My comment about the first question: I don't think that if the Kurds will be given their right it will become a second Afghanistan. Right now the Kurds in Iraq and other countries -- they do not have hope without future. They don't know what is going to happen. There is a tremendous economic depression, problems, divisions. If they have an entity, I believe that entity will resolve many of the questions, and they will be able to live just like Dr. -- (inaudible) -- like any country that has the right to live in peace.

The second question, about the missing people -- this is a human tragedy. The Iraqi regime back in '83, they collected about 8,000 people near Irbil, and in '88 during the chemical war they collected 180,000 civilian and other Kurds -- all of these people, approximately 190,000 -- their future is unknown, and they are missing -- whether they have been buried alive. And in our negotiations back in '91, when we were in Baghdad, and I was among the Kurdish delegation, we insisted upon the Iraqi regime to know the fate of these people, and I believe it is incumbent upon us to ask about the future collectively. And it's the responsibility of the international community to help us in this, as they helped the Muslims in Bosnia and they are exhuming the bodies of the Muslims in Bosnia. Why is anybody interested about the mass graveyards and they talk to Saddam like Mladic and Karadic?

MR. KABALAN: (?) We have another question from Mr. Eldad (ph) in Sweden.

Q Good evening, Mr. Nidal. Good evening. In fact, I have two questions.

MR. KABALAN: Go ahead.

Q The first question is to Mr. MacDowell: How stability will be in the Middle East when the question of 36 million people is not resolved?

The second question is for Dr. Maksoud Asman (ph): What do you believe about the National Kurdish Conference? Is it possible that it will lead to the unification of the divided Kurdistan?

MR. KABALAN: Thank you, Mr. Eldad (ph). Mr. MacDowell (sp), is it possible to have security and stability in the region without resolving the Kurdish problem?

MR. MACDOWELL (sp): I believe the Kurdish problem -- it is not of the same strategic importance as the resolution of the Israeli problem. The Kurdish problem must continue, and it will cause enormous internal destability if it is not resolved. But I doubt that the international community and the United States -- that the problem will continue, and I don't know what is the solution. I believe, vis-a-vis Turkey, there is some progress. But the manner in which Turkey is trying to become closer to Europe makes it adhere more and more to human rights laws. For instance, presently the problem of European human rights is giving considerable attention to Turkey, and Turkey in the future must give the Kurds more basic human rights. But there is no concept for human rights in the question of the Arab and Iranian perspective. But there is a problem also of Kurdistan in Iraq.

MR. KABALAN: Thank you, Mr. MacDowell. And we continue by going to Mohammed in Washington.

MR. SHINNAWI: Thank you, Nidal. We have a question from Jemal (ph) in Holland. Please go ahead.

Q Mr. Shinnawi -- I have a question to Mr. Mike -- the same question that was presented to Dr. David. Is it possible to perceive a Middle East enjoying peace without the resolution of the Kurdish problem? My question to Mr. MacDowell (sp): What is your comment -- what is your view of the resolution of the Kurdish problem in the current complex situation?

MR. SHINNAWI: Mr. Mike?

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, I don't think that you can perceive a comprehensive peace in the Middle East without resolution of the Kurdish problem. As I said before, the Kurdish problem stretches across many borders, and is now impacted by the Israel-Turkey agreement, but Turkey-Syria relations. And so unless you resolve the question as it affects 30 or more million people in the region, I don't think you can possibly have a comprehensive peace.

MR. MACDOWELL (sp): (?) The future of possible solutions for the Kurdish problem, and when -- it seems to me that Kurdish leaders have to take the initiative and to organize a National Kurdish Conference to lay down a strategy and a policy for the Kurdish nation.

As far as our relations with outside parties are concerned, we need to have those outside parties look at the Kurdish question from a broad perspective. But if once the Kurdish people decide, and once they have a clear strategy, that should have a positive effect on the way outside parties view us, and especially the United States.

MR. SHINNAWI: Thank you both. Could we have your views on what you think the possible solution might be for the Kurdish question in the future?

MR. AMITY (sp): Well, it's a very -- it would have to be a very complicated type of solution, given that the Kurds live in numerous countries under numerous types of government. Certainly from the human rights perspective the best thing to do is to find a solution in each of these countries where the rights of all the Kurds and all of their neighbors would be respected.

MR. SHINNAWI: Thank you. And now to London.

MR. KABALAN: Thank you, Mohammed. Our time is running short. One final word please.

MR. ASMAN (ph): (?) The final word is that I believe that I am calling upon all my fellow Kurds everywhere in the world not to fight, to solve all problems by dialogue, and to speak with the outside world in one voice, so that we may find support for our cause, because America and other countries are concerned with our problem only from a humanitarian perspective, but not from a political perspective.

The Kurds, if they were to speak in one voice, and if they were to unite, they might be able to find and to establish a kind of political support for their cause.

MR. KABALAN: Thank you. Thank you for your final comment, and Mr. MacDowell (sp), may we please have one final comment?

MR. MACDOWELL (sp): I have one comment, which is some kind of a wishful thinking. I hope that the governments of the Western world would be less willing to trade with the countries that do not support the Kurdish question, and to pay more attention to political and humanitarian solutions to the problem.

MR. SHINNAWI: We are very short on time. We wish to thank our two guests in Worldnet studios in Washington, Dr. -- (inaudible) -- Karem (ph) and Mike Amity (sp). We hope to see you next Thursday at 5:00 P.M. Greenwich mean Time from the Republican Party's national headquarters in California. This is Mohammed Shinnawi from Voice of America signing off. Nidal?

MR. KABALAN: And we thank our two guests, Dr. Makmoud Asman (ph) and Dr. David MacDowell (sp) for enriching this dialogue, and we thank our listeners and viewers for enriching this dialogue with your questions and valuable suggestions. And we also thank all those whose questions we were not able to address. We would like to thank you for enriching this dialogue once again with your questions and valuable suggestions. We hope to see you again the same time next week.

(End transcript)

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