Greek Government Press Briefing, 07-11-05

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

Tmhma Dhmosiografikwn Kalycewn

Deytera, 5 Noembrioy 2007

Ariqmos Deltioy: 104393123

Ekdosh 1

brf0511

YPOYRGOS EPIKRATEIAS

Aqhna, 5 Noembrioy 2007

Xairete kai kalh ebdomada.

" Ayrio, stis 11.00, synedriazei h Kybernhtikh Epitroph. Thn Tetarth, stis 12.30, o Prwqypoyrgos qa synanthqei sto Megaro Majimoy me th Genikh Grammatea toy Kommoynistikoy Kommatos Elladas k. Aleka Paparhga, katopin aithmatos ths.

" Qa sas dwsw merika stoixeia -kai qa prospaqhsw kaqe Deytera na exw orismena stoixeia poy qa sas einai, pisteyw, xrhsima- gia thn poreia twn ergwn poy ginontai se kaqe tomea stis pyroplhktes perioxes, wste na exete mia eikona ths synexeias.

Jekinw apo to Ypoyrgeio Agrotikhs Anaptyjhs: Epeita apo synennohsh toy Ypoyrgoy Agrotikhs Anaptyjhs kai Trofimwn k. Kontoy me ton Ypoyrgo Oikonomias kai Oikonomikwn k. Alogoskoyfh kai ton Proedro toy Eidikoy Tameioy Antimetwpishs Ektaktwn Anagkwn k. Molybiath, anakoinwqhke: Qa doqei poso 4 ekatommyriwn eyrw gia thn kalych dapanhs agoras zwotrofwn kai melissotrofwn. Gnwrizoyme oti oi zwotrofes einai ena poly megalo problhma stis plhgeises perioxes. Deytero enhmerwtiko shmeiwma apo to idio Ypoyrgeio: Oloklhrwnontai se syntomo xroniko diasthma oi meletes gia thn agrotikh anaptyjh twn pyroplhktwn perioxwn poy syntassontai apo 145 eidikoys episthmones toy Gewponikoy Panepisthmioy Aqhnwn, toy Aristoteleioy Panepisthmioy Qessalonikhs, toy Dhmokriteioy Panepisthmioy Qrakhs kai toy Eqnikoy Idrymatos Agrotikhs Ereynas (EQIAGE). Apo to idio Ypoyrgeio: Meta tis xqesines isxyres xalazoptwseis stoys dhmoys Oityloy kai Monembasias toy nomoy Lakwnias, oi opoies prokalesan zhmies se agrotikes perioxes, me entolh toy Ypoyrgoy Agrotikhs Anaptyjhs, klimakia toy ELGA episkeptontai tis plhgeises perioxes, prokeimenoy na pragmatopoihsoyn tis arxikes ektimhseis twn zhmiwn.

Qa sas dwsw stoixeia poy exw antlhsei apo to Ypoyrgeio Eswterikwn. Aforoyn bebaiws kai alla Ypoyrgeia, aplws ta exw antlhsei apo ekei. Gia ta antidiabrwtika erga sth Sterea Ellada: Sta Derbenoxwria exoyn teleiwsei hdh antidiabrwtika erga 20 xiliometrwn me kormodemata kai 50 fragmata. Stis 15 Noembrioy teleiwnoyn ola ta ypoloipa erga. Sthn Eyboia, exoyn hdh ginei 6 xiliometra kormodematwn, 8,5 xiliometra me sanidotoixoys kai 1460 fragmata. Ekkremoyn akomh 150 fragmata, ta opoia qa teleiwsoyn peri thn 20h Noembrioy. Hdh jekinhse o apologismos twn xrhmatwn poy edoqhsan ektaktws stoys dhmoys. To Ypoyrgeio exei zhthsei apo toys dhmoys kai tis nomarxies apologismo twn xrhmatwn poy doqhkan ektaktws gia tis pyroplhktes perioxes.

Sth dytikh Ellada exoyn dhmioyrghqei 700 xiliometra me kormodemata-kormoplegmata kai 15.000 tetragwnika metra me kormofragmata. Exoyn khryxqei anadaswtees oles oi perioxes sthn Hleia kai thn Axaia. Ayth thn ebdomada teleiwnei kai h Aitwloakarnania. Exei apagoreyqei h qhra se oles tis pyroplhktes perioxes kai ginontai kaqarismoi potamwn, opws twn potamwn Neda, Akida, Soxia Amaliados, Zaxareikh grana, Kladews. Ston Alfeio o kaqarismos einai se ejelijh.

De qa sas koyrasw, dinontas sas leptomereies apo toys dhmoys, alla sas enhmerwnw apo twra oti kaqe Deytera qa ginetai prospaqeia prokeimenoy na exete thn plhresterh dynath enhmerwsh gia tetoia qemata, ta opoia oytws h allws den teleiwsan me to telos toy kalokairioy. Yparxei mia seira apo problhmata poy antimetwpizoyn polloi sympolites mas kai qa prepei na toys bohqhsoyme.

" Epishs, na sas pw oti dhmosieyqhke hdh sto Fyllo ths Efhmeridas ths Kybernhsews, h ryqmish gia th xorhghsh proswrinhs syntajhs. Sas qymizw oti yparxei ryqmish apo to armodio Ypoyrgeio Apasxolhshs kai Koinwnikhs Prostasias. Pisteyoyme -kai epanalambanw dhlwsh toy k. Maggina- oti oloi oi ergazomenoi stoys foreis koinwnikhs asfalishs qa dwsoyn ton kalytero toys eayto sthn prospaqeia ayth. Sthn prospaqeia dhladh wste oi sympolites mas poy bgainoyn sth syntajh, na pairnoyn th megalh prokatabolh ths syntajhs toys -se mhniaia bash ennoeitai pantote- entos toy prwtoy dekapenqhmeroy apo thn hmera poy qa bgoyn sth syntajh kai na mhn kaqysteroyn. To zhtoymeno einai na petyxoyme ayth thn antigrafeiokratikh diadikasia, h opoia sebetai ton polith. Xreiazetai synergasia, opws exw pei kai allh fora, olwn twn ypallhlwn twn armodiwn Tameiwn. H proqesh ths Politeias einai safhs.

Parakalw tis erwthseis sas.

MPOTSARAKOS: Epeidh milhsate gia ta antiplhmmyrika erga kai epeidh shmera yparxei ena dhmosieyma se sxesh me ton apologismo poy eipate oti zhthqhke, exei symbei ayto, exei dwsei o nomarxhs Eyboias xrhmata gia allo skopo, gia tritoys skopoys peran apo thn enisxysh twn pyroplhktwn kai an exei ginei ayto, to exete ereynhsei an exei symbei, an mporei na symbainei kai pws to sxoliazei h kybernhsh;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Opws sas eipa, shmera to Ypoyrgeio Eswterikwn zhthse apo oloys toys nomarxes  exei zhthqei apo hmeres apo toys dhmoys kai exei hdh paralabei apo polloys dhmoys- plhrh enhmerwsh gia to pws diateqhsan ta xrhmata. Deyteron, dystyxws, einai alhqeia ayto to opoio lete. To diabasa kai egw se dhmosieymata. Epikoinwnhsa me ton k. Nako. O nomarxhs Eyboias, ontws, se syskech poy egine dyo hmeres meta thn orkwmosia ths neas kybernhshs -otan o k. Nakos me synergates toy phge sthn Eyboia- dhlwse enwpion pollwn paristamenwn oti to poso poy doqhke gia ta erga apokatastashs twn plhgeiswn apo tis pyrkagies perioxwn, aytos qa ta ajiopoihsei h ta ajiopoihse gia to Dioikhthrio, to opoio kaqysteroyse na plhrwsei h nomarxia kai gia anoixtoys logariasmoys poy eixe, nomizw, apo thn epoxh twn xioniwn. Gnwrizete poly kala oti h Politeia kanei to kaqhkon ths. Dinei ta xrhmata ta opoia prepei. Apo thn allh pleyra, h aytodioikhsh exei eyqynes. Kai exei eyqynes kai hqikhs tajews, giati mporei nomika na kalyfqei kapoios, legontas oti to kondyli proorizotan gia ektaktes anagkes, ara kai egw se ektaktes anagkes to xrhsimopoihsa, gia ta xionia as poyme. Alla hqika kaneis den exei dikaiwma na leitoyrgei me ton tropo ayto, ton opoio o idios paradexqhke. To anaferw ws qema, katopin ths erwthshs sas kai twn dhmosieymatwn poy eida kai egw shmera, dioti qewrw oti tetoies energeies ypotimoyn ton Ellhna polith. H aytodioikhsh, eite einai topikh, eite nomarxiakh, elegxetai apo toys polites poy eklegoyn ton kaqena. Kai den einai qema poios sthrizei poion, se poio komma proskeitai o kaqenas. Exoyn yparjei dhmarxoi kai nomarxes, oi opoioi epi kybernhsews PASOK, h twra epi kybernhsews Neas Dhmokratias enw sthrixqhkan apo ta antiqeta kommata, leitoyrghsan me tetoio tropo syllogikhs synergasias me thn Politeia kai bohqhsan toys polites toys. Den to kommatikopoiw to qema. Politiko einai oytws h allws.

KAKALHS: Exete kapoia ektimhsh gia to synoliko ycos twn zhmiwn stis pyroplhktes perioxes kai apo aytes, posa qa kalyfqoyn apo ton kratiko proypologismo, posh qa einai h bohqeia ths Eyrwpaikhs Enwshs; H prwth erwthsh einai ayth kai h deyterh, an qa khryxqoyn kai pote anadaswtees oi perioxes poy kahkan sthn Attikh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Eixa apanthsei pro hmerwn, an qymaste, giati erwthqhka gia orismenes perioxes kai sas eixa pei oti yparxei ena periqwrio triwn mhnwn, to opoio mporei na epektaqei stoys pente mhnes, analoga me tis synqhkes kai ta problhmata poy mporei na exei kaqe perioxh. Ayto to periqwrio den exei ``kleisei'' akoma, den exei teleiwsei..

KAKALHS: Eipate gia toys alloys nomoys, gia thn Attikh;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den thn anefera. Yphrxe, an qymamai kala, ena problhma sthn Attikh. Qa moy epitrecete na to ereynhsw kai na sas dwsw perissotera stoixeia. Oson afora sto prwto skelos toy erwthmatos sas, den exw na sas dwsw apanthsh twra. Sthn prospaqeia ayth poy qa kanw kaqe Deytera, na sas enhmerwnw, eite egw eite o anaplhrwths moy, qa entajw kai ayta ta erwthmata gia na exete plhrh gnwsh.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, giati to Ypoyrgeio Oikonomikwn den efarmozei ta metra gia toys pyroplhktoys kai sthn Axaia, ta idia poy efarmozei kai gia toys alloys; Kahkan perissotero oi alloi; Aytoi exoyn kaei ligotero; Yparxoyn ligotero kai perissotero kamenoi;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ta metra efarmozontai se oles tis pyroplhktes perioxes. De milame genikws gia thn Axaia, milame gia thn Aigialeia, h opoia einai pyroplhkth perioxh. Twra, an h Aigialeia einai pyroplhkth perioxh kai kapoios epixeirhmatias poy drasthriopoieitai sthn Patra prospaqei na ajiopoihsei tis pronomies poy edwse h Politeia sthn pyroplhkth perioxh, antilambaneste oti ayto den qa htan oyte logiko, oyte swsto apenanti se aytoys poy eplhghsan. Allh einai h oysia toy erwthmatos sas.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Gia thn Aigialeia lew egw. Oyte se aytoys thn efarmozei.

ROYSOPOYLOS: De gnwrizw kati tetoio. Qa moy epitrecete na enhmerwqw.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Rwthste ton k. Mpeza... ,

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qa moy epitrecete na enhmerwqw kai na sas dwsw mia apanthsh ayrio.

KWNSTANTINIDHS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, eipate oti qa doqoyn 4 ekatommyria eyrw gia zwotrofes. Dierwtwmai, pote qa arxisoyn na dinontai lefta gia na xtistoyn ta spitia;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Exoyn proxwrhsei arketa. Jerete, to na xtisei ena spiti kapoios den einai mia diadikasia poy ginetai apo th mia mera sthn allh.

KWNSTANTINIDHS: Bebaiws, alla exoyn jekinhsei, omws;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Bebaiws, exoyn jekinhsei. Allwste, opws exei eipwqei apo armodia xeilh -kai milaw kai gia ton k. Molybiath alla kai gia ton Ypoyrgo PEXWDE, k. Soyflia- to Ypoyrgeio PEXWDE: Prwton, proxwra sth dhmioyrgia kapoiwn protypwn me th bohqeia arxitektonwn, etsi wste oi kainoyrgies katoikies poy qa ginoyn, na exoyn aisqhtika apotelesmata tetoia poy qa einai ta kalytera gia thn perioxh. Deyteron, gnwrizete poly kala oti exei lhfqei apofash, symfwna me thn opoia oi oikogeneies qa paroyn tosa tetragwnika metra gia kaqe spiti, analoga me to posa paidia exei h kaqe oikogeneia. Dhladh, qa xtistoyn spitia megalytera apo ayta ta opoia mporei na eixe kapoios prohgoymenws, efoson exei perissotera paidia.

KWNSTANTINIDHS: H kypriakh kybernhsh exei analabei mia ypoxrewsh gia kapoio xwrio. Exei proxwrhsei ayth h diadikasia;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Nai, exei proxwrhsei.

GKOYTZANHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, giati mas kanete ayth thn eidikh enhmerwsh gia thn politikh ths kybernhshs gia toys pyroplhktoys;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qa eimai apolytws eilikrinhs. Eida xqes sthn thleorash kapoioys polites na diamartyrontai gia synqhkes poy pernoyn, sxetika dyskoles. Sebomai ton pono toy kaqenos, oloi to sebomaste kai h kybernhsh to sebetai. Mazi me toys synadelfoys Ypoyrgoys exoyme syzhthsei polles fores ypo ton Prwqypoyrgo -kai meta tis ekloges- gia to ti exei ginei kai to ti ginetai stis perioxes aytes. Qewrw, loipon, ypoxrewsh ths Politeias na enhmerwnei, ektos twn allwn -kai eipa na ginetai ayto mia fora thn ebdomada- etsi wste na gnwrizete ki eseis me leptomereies gia to ti akribws kanei h Politeia se aytes eidika tis perioxes.

GKOYTZANHS: Kai gia alla qemata oi polites diamartyrontai. Gia paradeigma, gia to xali ths dhmosias Paideias, alla den mas kanete tetoia analytikh kai ektetamenh enhmerwsh gia to ti kanei h kybernhsh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den qa sas pw oti me enoxlei na me adikoyn giati to exw synhqisei pia. Wstoso qa sas parapemcw...

GKOYTZANHS: Einai proswpiko;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oxi, den einai proswpiko pros esas. Qa sas parapemcw omws se syzhthseis poy kaname se ayth thn aiqoysa prin apo 1 h 1,5 xrono gia qemata Paideias, opoy mallon gia to antiqeto me eixate kathgorhsei tote. Oti dhladh, enw erxomai kai apantw epi mish wra se ola ta qemata Paideias, se alla den apantw. Opws blepete, kata periptwsh, se qemata ta opoia einai zeonta, yparxoyn kai analytikes apanthseis. Den ypokaqistw edw to rolo kanenos Ypoyrgoy. Aplws, sto qema twn pyrkagiwn, epeidh emplekontai polla Ypoyrgeia kai polloi Ypoyrgoi, nomizw oti prepei na yparxei mia kentrikh enhmerwsh. Kai efoson xreiastei kati pio eidiko, einai bebaio oti oi alloi Ypoyrgoi ths kybernhshs qa sas parasxoyn ayth thn pio eidikh enhmerwsh.

SPYRAKH: Kyrie Ekproswpe, qa hqela sas parakalw na mas ejhghsete, edw sto press room, pote sxediazei h kybernhsh na ferei ton eklogiko nomo sthn Kybernhtikh Epitroph.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Gnwrizete poly kala oti sas anakoinwnw synhqws thn prohgoymenh hmera ta qemata ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs. Se orismenes periptwseis, opws shmera, den sas anakoinwsa oyte kan qema. Den shmainei oti qa einai ayto to qema ayrio. Aplws, feygontas dystyxws sxetika arga apo to grafeio moy den prolaba na enhmerwqw gia to poio qa einai to ayriano qema poy qa syzhthqei sthn Kybernhtikh Epitroph. Alla den qa einai ayto.

SPYRAKH: Ara, den exoyme to ayriano qema.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oxi.

SPYRAKH: To deytero poy hqela na sas rwthsw einai to ejhs: Yphrje xqes seira dhmosieymatwn poy aforoyse stis epiloges kai sta osa leei o k. Alogoskoyfhs. Orismena dhmosieymata eixan fraseis toy Ypoyrgoy Oikonomias se eisagwgika. Metajy aytwn twn dhmosieymatwn diatypwnontan apo thn pleyra toy k. Alogoskoyfh problhmatismos gia th diaxeirish twn nosokomeiwn kai gia th diaxeirish twn dhmosiwn oikonomikwn apo thn pleyra twn Organismwn Topikhs Aytodioikhshs. Symmerizetai h kybernhsh aytes tis ektimhseis;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Sygnwmh, anafereste se dhlwseis h se plhrofories oi opoies feroyn kapoion Ypoyrgo na milaei;

SPYRAKH: Kyrie Ypoyrge, anaferomai se reportaz ta opoia exoyn fraseis se eisagwgika kai eimai sigoyrh oti oi synadelfoi poy ebalan frash se eisagwgika den to ekanan me idia boylhsh.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Egw den krinw kanena dhmosiografo. Exw dei polles fores na moy apodidontai fraseis se eisagwgika kai na mhn exoyn kamia sxesh me thn pragmatikothta. Se kaqe periptwsh, opws gnwrizete, den prokeitai na kanw kapoio sxolio gia reportaz.

PALAIOLOGOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, qa epanelqw sto qema toy eklogikoy nomoy. Kai ayto me aformh kapoies xqesines topoqethseis  enstaseis poy diatypwse xqes o Proedros toy PASOK k. Papandreoy se sxesh me to qema, o opoios epanefere tis gnwstes toy apoceis peri aytonomias ths politikhs apo diafores alles synistwses ths dhmosias zwhs. Sto qema toy eklogikoy nomoy qa labei ypoch ths h kybernhsh tis enstaseis toy k. Papandreoy;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Opws gnwrizete, o eklogikos nomos eisagetai sth Boylh me th morfh nomosxedioy kai syzhteitai. Qa akoysoyme tis apoceis, loipon, kai twn ypoloipwn kommatwn kai sth syzhthsh, loipon, ean xreiastei na ginoyn kapoies diaforopoihseis, ayto qa kriqei ekeinh thn wra apo ton armodio Ypoyrgo. Pantws, h basikh kateyqynsh einai gnwsth.

SPYRAKH: Epi ths diadikasias gia ton eklogiko nomo, ean moy epitrepete. Yphrjan dhmosieymata kai to Sabbatokyriako poy elegan oti mporei aytos na synodeytei kai apo to nomosxedio gia thn chfo twn apodhmwn. Skopeyei h kybernhsh na syndyasei aytes tis dyo energeies;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den gnwrizw kati tetoio. Nomizw oti einai dyo jexwrista qemata.

GKOYTZANHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, exete ypoch sas thn apostrofh toy k. Papandreoy sth xqesinh toy omilia poy anaferotan ston eklogiko nomo;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qelete na rwthsete kati ep` ayths; Den qymamai sygkekrimena, alla peite moy.

GKOYTZANHS: An nomizete oti afhnei kapoio paraqyro synennohshs twn dyo megalwn kommatwn.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Opws gnwrizete, emeis proserxomaste sth Boylh, pantote -alla kai prin ena nomosxedio ftasei sth Boylh, opws gia paradeigma ginetai me to Asfalistiko, poy syzhteitai men sto plaisio ths epitrophs ths Boylhs, alla xwris na yparxei akoma etoimo nomosxedio- me tis kalyteres dynates proqeseis kai me diaqesh na akoysoyme thn allh apoch. Kai apedeixqh, gia paradeigma, sto nomosxedio poy egine nomos gia thn Paideia, oti akoygontas kai thn allh apoch, diamorfwqhke ena teliko keimeno to opoio perilambane polles apo tis parathrhseis ths allhs apochs. Etsi qa proselqoyme kai me ayto to nomosxedio sth Boylh. Apo kei kai pera to PASOK, opws kai kaqe komma, analambanei th dikh toy eyqynh.

SPYRAKH: Kyrie Ekproswpe, qelw na rwthsw ean exei aposafhnisei h kybernhsh me poion tropo prokeitai na ginei h xrhmatodothsh toy asfalistikoy systhmatos. To lew, giati to Sabbatokyriako dhmioyrghqhke epishs, h eikona oti yparxei diafora apocewn metajy toy Ypoyrgoy Oikonomias kai toy Ypoyrgoy Apasxolhshs.

ROYSOPOYLOS: hqela na sas pw oti h syzhthsh ginetai sto plaisio ths armodias epitrophs ths Boylhs. Ekei, h kybernhsh, opws safws exei dhlwsei kai o armodios Ypoyrgos, qa paroysiasei tis qeseis ths. Gi` ayto kai kaloyme oloys osoi endiaferontai pragmatika gia to Asfalistiko, na symmetexoyn se ayth th diadikasia. Mia diadikasia, allwste, paroysiashs apocewn, antiparaqeshs skecewn h protasewn. Tipote perissotero, ews otoy ginei ayth h paroysiash twn apocewn sth Boylh.

MPOTSARAKOS: Epeidh anaferqhkate sto Asfalistiko, yparxei mia apofash toy Symboylioy ths Epikrateias, kai ws gnwston, den sxoliazete apofaseis toy. Omws sthn prokeimenh periptwsh, dhmioyrgeitai ena sobaro qema to opoio mporei kai na torpilisei to dialogo gia to asfalistiko. Kai to lew me thn ennoia oti dhmioyrgei nea dedomena. Dhladh, to na qemeliwnetai dikaiwma syntajiodothshs sta 25 xronia einai kati poly diaforetiko apo ayto poy jeroyme mexri shmera kai endexomenws mporei na erxetai kai apenanti kai se kapoies proqeseis h kapoies protaseis gia periorismo twn prowrwn syntajiodothsewn.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Einai endiaferon to qema. Qa moy epitrecete na mh sxoliasw twra. Einai bebaio oti sto plaisio ths epitrophs ths Boylhs qa syzhthqei kai ayto.

KAKALHS: Eipate oti qa paroysiasete sth Boylh tis protaseis sas gia to Asfalistiko. Alla, eidika to qema ths xrhmatodothshs poy einai kayto, den nomizete oti ofeilei h kybernhsh kapoia apanthsh prin apo thn ayrianh synedriash gia to pws qa ejoflhsei ta 8 disekatommyria xreh pros ta Tameia poy exei san kybernhsh, san kratos apenanti sta Tameia;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ws kybernhsh den exei 8 disekatommyria xreh. Giati, opws gnwrizete, milame gia sysswreymena xreh, oxi mono se ayto ton tomea, alla kai sthn Topikh Aytodioikhsh, kai sta nosokomeia kai alloy. Gnwrizete oti ginetai mia prospaqeia. Epi 3,5 xronia egine poly megalh prospaqeia noikokyrematos ths oikonomias. Synexizetai ayth h prospaqeia etsi wste na mporesoyme na antlhsoyme kefalaia apo to noikokyrema wste na pane kai sto Asfalistiko kai sta megala xreh twn nosokomeiwn kai sthn Topikh Aytodioikhsh. Se sysswreymena xreh pollwn etwn kai sth Nomarxiakh Aytodioikhsh kai se polloys alloys tomeis, afoy sysswreythkan ayta epi polla xronia. H prospaqeia den einai eykolh. Den sas lew kati kainoyrio. H prospaqeia einai poly dyskolh. Se kaqe periptwsh omws, ayto poy epiqymei na dhlwsei h kybernhsh dhmosiws einai oti qa protimoyse na mh xrhsimopoihqei ws profash apo kamia pleyra  den exw kati sto myalo moy ayth th stigmh gia na pw sygkekrimena- ayto to qema, prokeimenoy na mhn proselqei kanenas sto dialogo. Giati sto dialogo mporei kallista na proselqei o opoiosdhpote ek twn prosklhqentwn, ek twn endiaferomenwn na kataqesei tis apoceis toy. To Asfalistiko den einai ena qema to opoio apasxolei mono thn ekastote kybernhsh. Einai logiko oti apasxolei oloys toys polites.

GKOYTZANHS: Nai, alla h ekastote kybernhsh exei thn ypoxrewsh kai th dynatothta na efarmosei to nomiko plaisio to opoio yparxei. Dhladh, gia na to pw pio parastatika...

ROYSOPOYLOS: H diamorfwnetai apo th Boylh.

GKOYTZANHS: Oxi, ayto to opoio yparxei. Gia na katabalei to kratos to meridio poy toy analogei sth kratikh xrhmatodothsh, den xreiazetai oyte dialogos oyte nomos. Gia na kanei oti mporei gia na antimetwpisei thn eisforodiafygh, poy einai ena zhthma, den xreiazetai oyte dialogos oyte nomos. To idio kai gia na periorisei to kostos ths grafeiokratias twn asfalistikwn systhmatwn poy anerxetai, symfwna me kapoies meletes, sto 30%. Dhladh, yparxei mia seira pragmata ta opoia kaqe kybernhsh mporei na ta kanei kai den xreiazetai kamia eidikh nomikh ejoysiodothsh. Giati den ta kanei ayta h kybernhsh prin arxisei to dialogo gia ta meizona.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Epitrecte moy na xrhsimopoihsw ena paradeigma to opoio nomizw oti emmesws apanta sto erwthma sas. Einai h trith fora poy egw proswpika -kai allh mia fora o anaplhrwths moy- se ayth thn aiqoysa apeyqyname paraklhsh pros toys ypallhloys twn Tameiwn, enocei ths ryqmishs h opoia egine gia na syntajiodotoyntai oi polites entos 15 hmerwn. H kybernhsh kai h Politeia edeije thn proqesh ths, thn apofash ths. Apo ena shmeio kai meta, oi apofaseis gia na ektelestoyn xreiazontai mia seira apo paragontes poy prepei na sympleysoyn me ayth thn apofash. Se o,ti afora ta oikonomika, qa moy peite dhladh xreiazeste th sympleysh me kapoioys alloys paragontes gia na dwsete xrhmata; Apanthsa eyqews prohgoymenws. Otan paralambaneis mia oikonomia me elleimma peripoy 8% kai prepei na symmazeceis to elleimma gia na mporeseis na janaeisai sta oria ths ONE  giati epi ths oysias ayto egine ta teleytaia 3,5 xronia- otan xreiazetai na ayjhseis kai ta xrhmata sta Tameia kai ta xrhmata gia thn Paideia kai ta xrhmata gia oloys ekeinoys toys tomeis stoys opoioys anaferqhka prohgoymenws opoy exoyn sysswreyqei xreh etwn, antilambaneste oti den arkei mono mia politikh apofash. H politikh apofash yparxei. Den einai qema dhladh, proqeshs h kalhs h kakhs diaqeshs kapoias kybernhshs na dwsei h na mh dwsei xrhmata. Einai to zhthma poy qa breqoyn ayta ta xrhmata. Edw, loipon, ginetai mia prospaqeia. Kai pisteyw oti ayth h prospaqeia poy ginetai qa apodwsei karpoys -exei hdh apodwsei karpoys h prospaqeia symmazematos- prokeimenoy na mporesoyme na proseggisoyme to pososto ekeino poy problepetai apo to kratos pros ta asfalistika Tameia.

SPYRAKH: Kyrie Ekproswpe, se ena allo qema. Epeidh thn Paraskeyh yphrje ayth h ejelijh kai meta den eixate epishmh enhmerwsh, o Prwqypoyrgos twn Skopiwn k. Gkroyefski edwse synenteyjh kai se o,ti afora tis protaseis Nimits eipe oti den syzhta to endexomeno allaghs ths syntagmatikhs onomasias ths xwras toy gia dieqnh xrhsh. Qelw na kanw dyo erwthseis: H prwth einai an h Ellada exei kapoio sxolio se sxesh me th dhlwsh toy Prwqypoyrgoy ths geitonikhs xwras kai h deyterh einai an h xwra mas apodexetai ws bash diapragmateyshs tis shmeiwseis, ths protasews poy paredwse o k. Nimits stoys dyo mesolabhtes.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qa kanw mia genikh anafora kai ta eidikotera qa ta gnwrisete eite apo thn Ypoyrgo Ejwterikwn eite apo to Ypoyrgeio Ejwterikwn. En synexeia mporei na syzhtame kai edw, an yparxei kati to opoio xreiazetai peraiterw dieykrinish. Qa pw oti emeis ws Ellada sebomaste th diapragmateytikh diadikasia kai den protiqemeqa na kanoyme dhmosia sxolia, ews otoy oloklhrwqei ayth h diadikasia.

KAKALHS: Pws sxoliazete th sympleysh ths kybernhshs me ton k. Karatzaferh sto qema twn katalhcewn; Ayth h sympleysh nomizete oti shmainei kati gia thn politikh kai gia th stash ths kybernhshs apenanti stis agwnistikes kinhtopoihseis twn maqhtwn;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qymamai thn hmera poy orkisthkame boyleytes oti tines ek twn boyleytwn toy KKE as poyme, orkisthkan kai aytoi enwpion toy Eyaggelioy, ycwnontas to deji xeri kai legontas ton orko. Yphrjan alloi oi opoioi dhlwsan anejiqrhskoi. Den mporw, loipon, na pw oti boyleytes toy KKE yposthrizoyn qeseis ths Neas Dhmokratias h toy PASOK epeidh orkisthkan. An loipon yparxei mia taytish apocewn enos kommatos mikroteroy pros thn kybernhsh, megalytero pros mikrotero, den qewrw oti kat` anagkh prepei na ejagontai symperasmata alloy eidoys, peran toy oti symbainei ayto. Symbainei sth zwh ayto.

KAKALHS: Einai tyxaio, dhladh, poy symbainei. Den yparxei ideologikh kai politikh syggeneia kai taytothta.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den exw na pw kati allo.

KAKALHS: Mia deyterh erwthsh panw se ayto. Exete kapoia stoixeia san kybernhsh oti meiochfies poy exoyn bgei mesa apo tis syneleyseis twn maqhtwn empodizoyn h pane kontra kai epiballoyn tis dikes toys apoceis kontra sthn pleiochfia twn maqhtikwn symboyliwn; Giati exete milhsei gia dynamikes meiochfies, san kybernhsh ennow, exei akoystei kai ayto. Ti ennoeite me ton oro ``meiochfia''; As poyme oti h kybernhsh poy eklexqhke me to 29% toy ellhnikoy laoy einai meiochfia h oxi;

ROYSOPOYLOS: 29%; Ti ennoeite; Gia poia xwra milame;

KAKALHS: Gia thn Ellada milame. To 41% apo to 70% poy chfisan, se o,ti afora to synolo toy ellhnikoy plhqysmoy einai to 29%.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Allh erwthsh.

KAKALHS: Ta peri meiochfias qa ta apanthsete;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Qewrw oti to dikaiwma sth maqhsh to exei opoiosdhpote Ellhnas poliths, opws to exei opoiosdhpote Eyrwpaios poliths. To dikaiwma sth maqhsh den mporei na to sterhsei kaneis apo kanena diplano toy. Einai bebaio oti den mporei mia meiochfia na epibalei sthn pleiochfia thn apoch ths. Qa sas elega akomh perissotero oti ean enas maqhths qelei na einai se mia aiqoysa kai na didaxqei ta maqhmata poy ofeilei na toy didajei h Politeia, h Politeia ofeilei na einai paroysa kai na ton didajei, akomh ki ean enas maqhths qelei na einai sthn aiqoysa.

KAKALHS: To dikaiwma sth maqhsh yponomeyetai apo tis xiliades kenes aiqoyses, apo toys diorismoys poy den exoyn ginei tosa xronia, apo th ligoterh dapanh gia thn Paideia, apo ta axrhsta biblia. Ola ayta yponomeyontai kai poios eyqynetai gi` ayto;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Einai poly genikes oi anafores sas. Den jerw ti ennoeite otan lete ``xiliades kenes aiqoyses''. Ennoeite oti yparxoyn aiqoyses kai den yparxoyn maqhtes na tis gemisoyn;

KAKALHS: Ennow oti den exoyn dioristei kaqhghtes akoma. Yparxoyn akoma 2.000 kena.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Yparxoyn kena, alla to exoyme janasyzhthsei to qema. Otan to janasyzhthsame kai sas eipa poia einai h pragmatikothta, prin apo peripoy dyo xronia, nomizw oti mallon to jexasate.

KAKALHS: Poios epi ths oysias yponomeyei to dikaiwma sth morfwsh; Aytos poy diekdikei mia kalyterh morfwsh h aytos poy kanei o,ti mporei gia na mhn parexetai ayth h gnwsh;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ma, einai apolytws dhmokratiko dikaiwma kaqenos na diekdikei kalyterh morfwsh. Exete thn entypwsh oti h kybernhsh den qelei kalyterh morfwsh; Fysika kai qelei na dwsei h Politeia thn kalyterh morfwsh stoys polites. To qelei. To epiqymei. Gia na kanw kai mia yperbash, den qewrw oti eixame kapoia kybernhsh, h opoia den qa hqele na dwsei kalyterh morfwsh stoys polites. Apo thn allh pleyra, den qewrw oti enas poliths, dyo, pente, deka, eikosi, ekato h xilioi exoyn dikaiwma na bazoyn loyketo stis sxolikes aiqoyses kai na mhn epitrepoyn, na eiserxontai sthn aiqoysa se osoys qeloyn na mpoyn na kanoyn to maqhma toys. Den to briskw kaqoloy dhmokratiko.

MPOTSARAKOS: Fantazomai oti oi goneis kai oi maqhtes poy qeloyn ta paidia toys na pane na kanoyn maqhma den to briskoyn kaqoloy dhmokratiko kai, opws eipate, yparxei ena dikaiwma sth maqhsh poy den mporei kaneis na to sterhsei apo osoys qeloyn na maqoyn. Alla, blepoyme oti yparxoyn paidia poy qeloyn na pane sto sxoleio kai den mporoyn. Poios, loipon, qa toys diasfalisei oti ayto to dikaiwma toys mporoyn na to askhsoyn; Giati, apo o,ti apodeiknyetai, me koinwnikoys aytomatismoys den prokeitai na ginei kati tetoio.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Rwthqhka thn perasmenh ebdomada kai edwsa mia prwth apanthsh. Pros to paron, qa meinw se ayto.

GKOYTZANHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, kata thn apoch sas kai thn apoch ths kybernhshs, to dikaiwma sth maqhsh anairei th dhmokratikh arxh ths pleiochfias; Giati oi apofaseis lambanontai me thn pleiochfia kai desmeyoyn to synolo. Pantote etsi leitoyrgoysan kai oi idiwtikoi syllogoi kai oi maqhtikoi syllogoi.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Gnwrizw oti exoyme peripoy 14.000 sxoleia sthn Ellada. Gnwrizw oti yparxoyn kapoies ekatontades sxoleia poy exoyn kleisei. Apo ta osa mporw na gnwrizw  ektos kai ean symbainei kati teleiws diaforetiko kai den to exw maqei egw se ayto ton topo kai to exete maqei eseis kalytera kai den ennow esas proswpika mono- h pleiochfia twn maqhtwn qelei na mpei sthn tajh kai na kanei maqhma. Yparxoyn meiochfies oi opoies me tropo poy apadei twn dhmokratikwn eiwqotwn, eiserxontai thn prohgoymenh to apogeyma sto sxoleio afoy exoyn spasei ta loyketa, bazoyn mia kainoyrgia alysida me ena diko toys loyketo kai thn epomenh to prwi den epitrepoyn stoys maqhtes na mpoyn. Ayto...

KAKALHS: Exete stoixeia gi` ayto; Sas rwthsa ean exete stoixeia gi` ayto.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ayto, kata th gnwmh moy, einai entelws antidhmokratiko. To na mhn epitrepeis se kapoion na mpei einai entelws antidhmokratiko.

GKOYTZANHS: Se ayto symfwnoyn oloi.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Stoixeia den exei mono opoios eqelotyflei. Yparxoyn, dhladh, kataggelies poy akoygontai kaqhmerinws. Eseis oi idioi, oi dhmosiografoi sta MME, metaferete kataggelies politwn, gonewn, maqhtwn poy qeloyn na mpoyn na kanoyn maqhma kai kapoioi den toys to epitrepoyn. En pash periptwsei, h apoch ths kybernhshs einai oti oi polites poy qeloyn na kanoyn maqhma mporoyn na kanoyn maqhma -kai prepei na kanoyn maqhma- kai kaneis den dikaioytai na toys stamathsei.

GKOYTZANHS: Ara, den isxyei h arxh ths pleiochfias. Giati to prwto poy (den akoygetai) einai diaforetikhs tajhs kai se ayto symfwnoyn oloi...

ROYSOPOYLOS: H askhsh ths Dhmokratias einai mia poly dyskolh askhsh...

GKOYTZANHS: Fysika.

ROYSOPOYLOS: ... kai den einai kaqoloy apospasmatikh. Ayth thn askhsh thn ektima kapoios sto synolo ths. Blepei, dhladh, mia seira apo paragontes. Den jerw poy anafereste kai prospaqeite na bgalete ena apospasmatiko symperasma, dioti oydeis ej hmwn eipe oti den qa prepei na thrhqei h arxh ths pleiochfias. Proxwrhsa ena bhma parapera, ean anafereste se ayto poy eipa prohgoymenws, legontas oti kata thn proswpikh moy gnwmh, akomh kai an enas maqhths qelei na mpei sthn aiqoysa na kanei maqhma, ofeiloyn oi ypoloipoi poy diafwnoyn na ton afhsoyn na kanei maqhma kai h Politeia na einai paroysa na ton didajei.

GKOYTZANHS: Ean exei lhfqei apofash apo thn pleiochfia gia kapoioy eidoys kinhtopoihsh; Pantote etsi leitoyrgoysan, mexri twra toylaxiston, ta pragmata, ektos kai an apofasisoyme na to allajoyme.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Ayta poy lete den yparxoyn se kanena nomo. Ayta poy sas lew egw, omws, yparxoyn se nomoys.

GKOYTZANHS: ... yparxoyn kai ta eqima...

ROYSOPOYLOS: H Politeia kineitai me bash toys nomoys. Kineitai kai me bash tis idees, tis epanastatikes idees, tis wraies protaseis k.t.l., oi opoies kapoia stigmh mporei na ginoyn kai aytes nomos. Alla...

GKOYTZANHS: E, twra h ejoysia ti sxesh exei me epanastatikes idees, k. Ekproswpe; Mhn ta mperdeyoyme.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Allh erwthsh.

PALAIOLOGOS: Yparxei sto programma toy Prwqypoyrgoy synanthsh me th Genikh Grammatea toy KKE k. Paparhga;

ROYSOPOYLOS: To anakoinwsa sthn arxh.

PALAIOLOGOS: Gnwrizoyme to antikeimeno;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oxi. H k. Paparhga zhthse to ranteboy.

PALAIOLOGOS: Etsi genika; Qelw na pw oti den einai sygkekrimenh atzenta, den zhthse gia to Skopiano, fer` eipein h gia tis katalhceis sta sxoleia.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Den exw kati perissotero. Qa enhmerwqw kai qa sas pw.

KAKALHS: H prohgoymenh sas anafora oti oi polites poy qeloyn na kanoyn maqhma, qa kanoyn maqhma kai kaneis den mporei na toys empodisei, den einai anoikth enqarrynsh se ena eidos koinwnikoy aytomatismoy, se ayth th fasistikh qewria, dhladh poy ypokinei ta alla koinwnika strwmata na ejegerqoyn kata opoiwn diekdikoyn ta dikaiwmata toys;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Prwton, ean den paranohsa ayto poy eipate, mallon moy apeyqynete mia emmesh kathgoria. Deyteron, den eipa ``qa kanoyn maqhma'', etsi opws to eipate eseis. Parakalw na deite thn enhmerwsh opws akribws to diatypwsa. Yparxoyn magnhtofwna kai kameres poy katagrafoyn ayta poy lew.

KAKALHS: Mporeite na to epanalabete;

ROYSOPOYLOS: Oxi. Den xreiazetai na dieykrinisw. Ean eseis den prosexete, den xreiazetai na dieykrinisw egw kati perissotero. Hmoyn safhs se ayto poy eipa. Hmoyn safhs kai qa sas parakalesw para poly na mh diastreblwnete ayto poy eipa. Triton, loipon -kai epanalambanw to prwto, ean orqws katanohsa kai parakalw peite moy giati an to katanohsa orqws qa einai diaforetikh h apanthsh moy- ayto to peri fasismoy poy eipate, se poion apeyqynetai;

KAKALHS: Sth qewria peri koinwnikoy aytomatismoy kai apo th dikh sas anafora mporei na eklhfqei ws enqarrynsh gia efarmogh mias tetoias qewrias.

ROYSOPOYLOS: Kaqenas exei thn proswpikh toy istoria kai kaqenas exei kai thn politikh toy istoria. Lypamai eilikrina gia thn kathgoria poy moy apeyqynete. Sas thn epistrefw es oloklhron.

Sas eyxaristw.

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