Enenhnta Epta - To Periodiko ths Politistikhs Prwteyoysas Teyxos 7o

Mia synomilia toy Manolh kai ths Noras Anagnwstakh me ton 8emh Liberiadh, poy katagrafhke prosfata sthn A8hna.

8.L. Allo ena brady, fwtismeno apo tis frontides ths Noras, poy prolambanei tis epi8ymies mas... 8ymamai pws prwtognwristhkame, pote prwtomilhsame dhladh... 1963 sthn «Texnh», tote sthn odo Komnhnwn. Htan kati «ma8hmata», anagnwshs nomizw ta eixe onomasei, o Giwrgos o Sabbidhs gia ton Seferh, epi tesseris ebdomades kai sto teleytaio hr8e kai o idios o poihths, poy bombardisthke apo tis «prwtes» karekles me polles erwthseis. Oi pio polles bebaia, toylaxisto gia thn hlikia moy, emoiazan askopes, h poly symbatikes, e3' oy kai tolmhsa na ekfrasw thn antidrash moy.

M.A. Th bradia ekeinh th 8ymamai poly kala... Htane kai gia mena mia sygkinhtikh stigmh... 8ymamai sxedon oles tis erwthseis poy ginane kai kyriws tis apanthseis poy edwse o Seferhs. 8ymamai kai thn neanikh soy dysforia, poy egw omws thn yposthri3a.

8.L. To kalokairi ths idias xronias, sto Laykos Phlioy, soy egraca ena as to poyme gramma, poy wstoso den taxydromh8hke... Eixe san aformh ekeinh th bradia kai ta osa eipw8hkan. Mes sta 35 sxedon xronia poy perasan, pws blepeis, Manolh, analoges-prosfates ekdhlwseis;

M.A. Emena moy fainontai idies, ki oi erwthseis kai oi apanthseis, einai peripoy idies. Den prepei na rwtame pote aytonohta pragmata enan kata3iwmeno poihth. Apo th stigmh poy gnwrizoyme to ergo toy, th zwh toy, thn ekfrash kai thn prosfora toy, den rwtame pragmata, sta opoia dyskoleyetai kamia fora na apanthsei kai o idios. Oi perissoteroi, se tetoies periptwseis, 8eloyme mallon na epanalaboyme h na epibebaiwsoyme tis dikes mas apoceis para thn apoch toy dhmioyrgoy, kai polles fores ton fernoyme kai se dyskolh 8esh.

8.L Mia allh eikona poy diathrw entonh apo keinh thn epoxh einai sto ghpedo toy Arh, stoy Xarilaoy: mia kerkida mono, ki ayth «mish», xiononero me bardarh mazi, laspes, ki esy me mayrh omprela sky8rwpos...

M.A. Nai, to 3ereis, agapoysa poly to podosfairo. Tote htan h epoxh poy phgaina sto ghpedo anellipws. Ka8e Kyriakh. Oi omades poy sympa8oysa htan oi mikroteres, oi pio adynates...

N.A. Panta yper twn adynatwn...

8.L. Egw eixa odhgh8ei sto symperasma oti htan Apollwn Kalamarias...

M.A. Oxi, den hmoyn Apollwn Kalamarias. Hmoyna me ton Apollwna A8hnwn. Nai... thn «elafra ta3iarxia», opws thn legame tote, h opoia gia polles xronies htan h pio adynath omada. Mikroteros hmoyna me tis omades ths 8essalonikhs - pantote, kai idiaitera me ton PAOK, poy htan tote mikrh omada se sxesh me tis omades toy kentroy, toy POK poy legame. Pote me aytes, oi opoies htane pio dynates.

8.L. Me poioys phgaines synh8ws sto ghpedo;

M.A. Me diaforoys, me ton Kleito Kyroy kai alloys...

8.L. O Kleitos ti omada htan;

M.A. Hraklhs. Toys fwnazame gerontokores. Kai malwname pote-pote. Argotera, otan megalwse o gios moy phgainame kai mazi. Twra bebaia exoyn alla3ei poly ta pragmata, ola, kai to podosfairo. H texnikh, ta lefta, oi managers... Sxedon olh toy h omorfia exei katastrafei. Twra mphke katalytika to xrhma. Tote paizane gia th fanela, gia thn omada, kai gia mia portokalada...

8.L. Me xara ema8a pws ekdo8hke pali prosfata «O poihths Manoysos Fasshs», poy apo xronia eixe e3antlh8ei. Egw mono, to daneisa se treis-tesseris filoys, poy to caxnan epimona kai den to briskane...

S' ayto to biblio yphrxe mia desmeysh xronikh gia thn ekdosh kai twn «Anwmalwn rhmatwn» toy idioy. Mhpws, sta deka xronia poy mesolabhsan apo tote, «do8hke kapoia anastolh», h anaire8hkan oi logoi poy apagoreyan kati tetoio;

M.A. Opws 3ereis kai to eipes, eixa 8esei ws oro eikosi xronia kai meta na ekdo8oyn ta poihmata ayta «Ta anwmala rhmata». Meta eikosi xronia kai ton 8anato twn proswpwn poy yparxoyn mesa s' ayta. Den perasan bebaia ta eikosi xronia. Perasan deka monaxa xronia...

8.L. Malista. Symplhrwnw aplws oti e8esa to erwthma, me thn elpida mhpws, sto diasthma ayto, arxise kapoia diadikasia «aponomhs xaritos» stoys anagnwstes.

M.A. Oxi, kamia xarh, kamia. 8a ekdo8oyne deka xronia apo twra. O xwros ths poihshs... nai... einai aysthroteros stis «xares». Elpizoyme na ekdo8oyne meta deka xronia, an tote ypar3oyn oi syn8hkes, bebaia, na do8oyne sth dhmosiothta.

N.A. 8elw na pw kati panw s' ayto. Nomizw oti gia thn ekdosh toy «Manoysoy Fassh» eimai kata mega meros ypey8ynh, giati olh ayth h satirikh pleyra toy Manolh htane mia pleyra entelws kryfh. Thn h3ere mono o stenos kyklos twn filwn, ki htan sa na apekrypte ena kommati ths proswpikothtas toy, ena kommati apo thn pragmatikh toy ypostash, h opoia htan entelws synafhs me ta ypoti8emena sobara poihmata. Egw den nomizw pws o Manoysos Fasshs einai ligotero sobaros apo ta alla. Epifaneiaka deixnei oti einai mia elafra ocis, mia satirikh pleyra ths zwhs, h kai aytosarkasmos, alla basika pisteyw oti einai entelws symfyth me ton «sobaro» Anagnwstakh o Manoysos Fasshs... Htan loipon ena diko moy sprw3imo, synexes, opoy toy elega oti den einai dynato na apokrypteis apo ton kosmo to alh8ino soy proswpo... Kai oxi mono den ais8anomai ... enoxh, alla ais8anomai kai yperhfanh gi' ayto.

8.L. Kai einai poly fysiko na ais8anesai etsi. Oso metraei kai h dikh moy apoch, o «Manoysos Fasshs» einai isws mia anepanalhpth stigmh sthn neoellhnikh logotexnia, ena ypodeigma, oxi mono gia to epi meroys «swma» toy ergoy, alla yfoys, domhs kai paroysiashs. Den yparxei mono kapoios Fasshs, san antipodas ston Anagnwstakh, einai ena ntokoymento, ena mwsaiko, pws na to pw, mia terastia toixografia xrono-grafhmatwn...

N.A. Akribws, gia opoion 3erei. Giati h8ela na pros8esw oti opoios den gnwrizei ayth thn och toy Manolh, thn diakwmwdhtikh, as poyme, antilhch, toy tropoy poy blepei ta pramata, den mporei na katalabei kai to ypoloipo ergo toy. Dhladh einai entelws leich h ais8hsh ths poihshs toy, an to blepei kaneis monomerws apo th sobarh pleyra. Ayth einai h mia apoch. O Manoysos Fasshs einai h allh.

8.L. To 3erw. Wstoso, panw sth ny3h poy ekanes oti ayto einai to alh8ino toy proswpo, 8a moy epitreceis...

N.A. Oxi, 8emh. Katalaba ti 8eleis na peis, alla den ennooysa ayto. Einai akribws oi dyo oceis toy feggarioy. Dhladh, an kapoios agnoei ayth thn pleyra, einai sa na mhn 3erei ton an8rwpo, ara den mporei na katalabei kai ta poihmata toy.

8.L. 8elw, par' ola ayta na dieykrinisoyme: pws emfanizontan epi xronia me tosh omoiogeneia h «sobarh» poihsh toy Manolh, enw parallhla, as pw ston stablo, kratiotan «petalwmeno» ena e3 isoy «ka8aroaimo», o Manoysos...

N.A. Ma den kratiotan. Synyphrxe. Aplws htan sthn skoteinh pleyra. Osoi omws ton zoysame ka8hmerina, blepame oti ayto einai symfyto, giati o Manolhs den htan pote akraifnws dramatikos. Einai enas an8rwpos, poy exei synais8hsh kai ths arnhtikhs, as to pws etsi, pleyras ths sobarofaneias, poy einai kai to pio isxyro shmeio, dioti etsi kratas tis isorropies soy, s' ola ta pragmata...

8.L. Manolh, diabazeis ayto ton kairo newteroys poihtes;

M.A. Oxi poly, ektos apo ta poihmata poy moy stelnoyn. Den caxnw pia na brw neoys poihtes, enw kapote ecaxna, toys diabaza... Ekeino poy 8a mporoysa na pw, einai oti moiazoyn kaloi, oi perissoteroi milane mia swsth glwssa, isws kalyterh apo th dikh mas, alla bebaia den exoyn ta idia biwmata. Einai allh epoxh...

8.L. Ena problhma me toys neoys shmera einai to pws 8a diabastoyn, poia 8a einai h tyxh poy toys prepei. Moy fainetai oti ta teleytaia xronia, poy ekdidontai tosa polla biblia, h prooptikh toys periorizetai. Pws mporei na 3exwrisei enas agnwstos poihths, e3w apo kyklwmata, as poyme sthn eparxia...

M.A. Den symfwnw apolyta. Kai tote hsan polloi oi poihtes. Eprepe na diale3eis anamesa se polloys. Mhn koitas poy twra perasan ta xronia kai 3exwrisan merikoi. Den mporeis pote na probleceis poioi 8a meinoyn. H xronikh apostash, h diarkeia, toys 3exwrizei kai katastalazoyn...

8.L. 8a h8ela na koybentiasoyme sxetika kati poy, egw toylaxisto, epeshmana edw kai liga xronia. Ena akatanohto kai gi' ayto anhsyxhtiko symptwma. Orismenoi, poihtes kai poihtries, ekfrazontai se mia akatalhpth, 8a 'lega, forma. Den 3erw an ayto ginetai skopima, h etsi toys bgainei. Arketes fores paideythka na katalabw (tis perissoteres malista xwris apotelesma) ti 8eloyn na poyn, akribws apo ton tropo poy to diatypwnoyn, apo thn ekfrastikh toys forma. Dhladh, prospa8oysa dia mesoy deka, as poyme, epallhlwn stixwn, na brw poio to ypokeimeno, poio to kyriws rhma, kai poy to antikeimeno... Pws na anasyrei loipon kapoios thn sygkinhsh, poy einai to zhtoymeno, otan den ton boh8aei oyte ena, ypotypwdes estw, syntaktiko. 8ymamai pali ekeino poy eipe o Seferhs «De 8elw tipote allo para na milhsw apla, na moy do8ei etoyth h xarh...». Kai symplhrwnw me mia proswpikh moy ay8airesia pws kapoies xares den didontai. H tis exeis, h den tis exeis. Fobamai, loipon, mhpws ayto to akatanohto einai ena eidos «kamoyflaz» poy prospa8ei na krycei kapoio keno...

N.A. Panw s' ayto poy les, to akatanohto, kat' arxhn, exw thn entypwsh oti oi an8rwpoi poy diabazoyn poihsh thn plhsiazoyn me ton pio aplo tropo, dhladh plhsiazoyn ekeino poy mporoyne na katalaboyn. Ekeino poy nohmatika toys metadidetai. Omws den einai ayth h pragmatikh antapokrish poy perimenei enas poihths. Den leei pantote pragmata poy perimenei o allos na ta «eispra3ei», estw kai me th sygkinhsh, me kapoio synais8hma. Einai enas allos xwros o ka8ara poihtikos, poy einai enas xwros arketa dyskolos kai gia ton idio ton poihth, poy dinei mia maxh me ton idio ton eayto toy... Otan ayth h diergasia f8asei sto aproxwrhto, otan aggizei o poihths to apolyto shmeio, na ekfrasei, peripoy, to aneipwto ths ypar3hs toy, ekei to prama ligaki mperdeyetai, den mporei to opoio apotelesma na metado8ei, kai ton problhmatismo ayton ton eisprattoyn orismenoi mono.

8.L. Gnwrizw to klima, th dinh mesa sthn opoia brisketai enas gnhsios dhmioyrgos, otan prospa8ei na ekfrastei. Epanerxomai omws, dieykrinizontas me th boh8eia soy, s' ayto poy sas e3omologh8hka san proswpikh moy diapistwsh, gia na mhn pw ypocia... Ws pros to shmeio loipon, poy eystoxa xarakthrises apolyto, kai san tetoio, einai adie3odo gia toys dhmioyrgoys kai akatanohto gia toys perissoteroys dektes, exoyme na kanoyme me mia idiofyia, me mia yperbash, me mia isws, kalws ennooymenh trela. Opote einai eylogo: oi perissoteroi den ais8anontai aneta me mia tetoia «synanthsh», se mia stigmiaia, estw, synypar3h me mia megalofyia h enan trelo... Egw omws, anafer8hka se periptwseis opoy to ergaleio ayths ths ekfrashs, dhladh h glwssa, einai kapws akrwthriasmenh, dhladh den leitoyrgei pros ta e3w. Ths leipoyn stoixeia...

M.A. Amesothtas.

8.L. Akribws. Ayto h8ela na pw kai prin, otan xreias8hke na epikales8w elleich syntaktikoy. Kai bebaia, enas poy ka8etai kai grafei, 3erei poly kala syntaktiko. Alla pragmata leipoyn...

N.A. Akoy, 8emh... Isws einai kai ena eidos aytoktonias ayto. As poyme einai orismenoi poihtes poy exoyn f8asei s' ayto to shmeio toy aproxwrhtoy, poy legame, wste aytoktonoyn apo pleyras epikoinwnias. Dhladh den toys endiaferei pia an 8a leitoyrghsoyn me toys alloys. Dikaiwma toys. Egw to sebomai... Sto katw-katw, des posoi «kolakeyoyn» to koino, dhladh posoi syggrafeis den grafoyne mono gia na toys diabasei o kosmos kai na toys eispra3ei. 8elw na pw, oi an8rwpoi poy einai apomonwmenoi kapoy kai koitane mono ayto poy exoyne mesa toys, kai 8eloyne na to bgaloyne, opws bgainei-skoteino, ti la8os kanane; Ton eayto toys prospa8oyn na broyn. Edw exw enan sebasmo...

8.L. M' ayth thn ennoia, Nora, exeis dikio kai symfwnw. Gia periptwseis tetoiwn dhmioyrgwn yparxei mia dikaiwsh. Allwste, aytoi synh8ws einai oligografoi, den ek-didontai syxna. Fobamai omws toys «Doyreioys ippoys».

N.A. Eipa pws exw enan sebasmo megalo. S' aytoys omws poy eilikrina to kanoyn. Oxi s' aytoys poy paristanoyn toys «skoteinoys»...

8.L. Manolh, mia poy den mporoyme na ... e3antlhsoyme thn poihsh, apo th shmerinh Ellada ti einai ayto poy se «plhgwnei» perissotero;

M.A. ...H adiaforia.

8.L. San «etoimos apo kairo» edwses thn apanthsh.

M.A. Ti na pw... Zoyme alles epoxes, oi opoies diaferoyn apo tis dikes mas para poly. Oxi oti htan kalyteres bebaia oi dikes mas, alla twra einai kati allo ki emeis dyskolotera prosarmozomaste shmera. Gi ayto synh8ws apexoyme...

N.A. Poly kairia to eipes: h adiaforia. Nomizw oti oi an8rwpoi shmera einai kat' e3oxhn aboh8htoi giati ...oloi 8eloyn na boh8hsoyn. De ginetai tipote allo apo mia prospa8eia opoy oi men epidiwkoyn na peisoyne toys de oti pasxoyn kai prepei na toys enhmerwsoyn, na toys anoi3oyne ta matia. Olh ayth h ypermetrh prosfora boh8eias, poy einai synh8ws aney oysias kai ginetai, apo opoioys ginetai, den 3erw gia poioys logoys, ka8ista toys alloys akoma pio aboh8htoys. Oi perissoteroi den exoyn poy na akoymphsoyn, ki osoi einai pio dynatoi akoympoyne ston eayto toys. Moiazoyne zalismenoi...

8.L. 8ymamai poy gia th genia twn goniwn mas legane pws einai koyrasmenoi kai talaipwrhmenoi giati trabh3an polla: polemos, katoxh, peina, emfylios, k.lp. Wstoso leitoyrgoysan, 8a 'lega, pio fysiologika. Toys endiefere o plainos toys kai ta osa synebainan, pio oysiastika. Shmera, meta mison aiwna, mesa apo paidikes mnhmes kai biwmata, diapistwnw, sygkritika pia, pws, par' ola ayta, oi an8rwpoi tote htan pio «freskoi», ki oso ki an akoygetai o3ymwro, pio hremoi. Twra o kosmos einai prw8ystera koyrasmenos, ki as mh to syneidhtopoioyn oi perissoteroi. H zwh kai oi pros8etes anagkes poy dhmioyrghsame, isws emeis oi idioi, h mas tis epebalan, exei apan8rwpoys ry8moys kai antipara8eseis alloy typoy. Zoyme se mia zoygkla kai synainesame aboyla stoys «nomoys» ths...

N.A. Etsi einai, gi ayto eipa oti eimaste zalismenoi. Yparxei enas allos bombardismos shmera: apo para-plhroforhsh... Aytoi poy mporoyne kapws na 3eka8arisoyn orismena pragmata einai osoi elegxoyn ton eayto toys. Alla posoi an8rwpoi mporoyn shmera na eleg3oyn, na 3eroyn ti einai kai ti ginetai, na antista8oyn se ola ayta me ta opoia brisketai kyklwmenos o eaytos toys, poy den 3erei pia apo poy toy erxontai oles aytes oi plhrofories, olwn twn eidwn oi symboyles, oi 8ewries. Xreiazetai mia idiaiterh dynamh na antista8eis, na exeis thn aytognwsia san amyna...

8.L. Gia peite moy, sas leipei h 8essalonikh; Ti 8ymaste syxnotera, h epi8ymhsate perissotero...

M.A. Ma exei alla3ei toso poly kai h 8essalonikh, poy sxedon den thn gnwrizw ka8oloy thn kainoyria... Apo thn polh poy den yparxei pia, nostalgw, bebaiws nostalgw... Ta palia Ladadika. Oxi ta shmerina. Ayta den plhsiazontai pleon... Thn palia polh. Ena mikro meros ths diathrh8hke. Ena poly mikro meros, dystyxws. Tis alanes. Thn plateia Dikasthriwn, terastia, me xwma. Paizame gkazies, podosfairo, tsilika-tsomaka, th 8ymasai; Ka8e mera sxedon, gyrnwntas apo to sxoleio mas, to Peiramatiko...

N.A. Egw, prwth mera poy phga sth 8essalonikh... to '57, th gnwrisa by8ismenh sthn omixlh. Ayth h eikona exei meinei gia panta mesa moy. Otan phgame prin dyo xronia eida oti egine mia ektyflwtikh monterna politeia. Dhladh den htan ekeinh h 8essalonikh ths omixlhs. Exei para polla fwta shmera ki ayto ligaki, emena proswpika, me 3afniase.

M.A. 3ereis, 8emh, thn teleytaia fora poy hr8ame panw, episkef8hka to sxoleio. Mphkame stis ta3eis. Pes ta, Nora...

N.A. Ta paidia sastisan... Sthn arxh nomisan pws apofoithse prin 42 xronia. Meta to katalaban swsta: apofoitos toy 1942. Katalabaineis... Ta perissotera geloysan amhxana.

8.L. Egw briskomai pote-pote me ton 3hrotyrh. Synh8ws moy thlefwnaei kai anebainw egw sto Wraiokastro, poy meta to 8anato ths gynaikas toy menei pia ekei, monos. Bre8hkame prosfata loipon kai se anaferame.

M.A. Na soy pw kati me ton 3hrotyrh. Mia xronia, 8ymamai, kamname synexeia Solwmo. Enan xrono oloklhro ...Solwmo, Solwmo, Solwmo... Tolmhsa, loipon, egw poy hmoyn tote 15 xronw, na toy pw oti egrace kai kapoios Barnalhs ena poihma, poy to leme «Oi sklaboi poliorkhmenoi» - oxi «Oi eley8eroi poliorkhmenoi», to opoio, eipa, einai mallon kalytero... Moy leei «Esy ton 3ereis ton Barnalh; E, o idios bazei ton Solwmo poly ychlotera apo ton eayto toy...».

Kai moy deixnei thn porta «Phgaine e3w»...

Epistrofh sthn prohgoymenh selida..

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